Ep. 72 – Pamela Slim – Remember Who You Are

Interview with Pamela Slim

Mich Bondesio: [00:06:53]

Welcome Pam. I’ve been a fan of your work for a long time, so I’m really excited to have you on the show.

Pamela Slim: [00:06:59] Well, I’m excited to be here.

Mich Bondesio: [00:07:01]

Great. So some context for my audience. My first introduction to your work was through your brilliant book, The Widest Net.

It was chosen as a book for our book club in the online community that I’m a part of, which is hosted by Brian Clark, Jerod Morris, and Trudi Roth. And for that book club, we were so fortunate because you joined us live for the session, so we got to pick your brain. And after that, I implemented loads of what you shared in that book. And I still use some of those strategies today. It’s been so helpful. I also signed up to listen to your podcast and I get your really thoughtful and inspiring newsletter.

So it’s been a good three years or so, I think, since I’ve been following your work. And with the new focus of the Creating Cadence Podcast shifting to look more at how we build a more sustainable flow into our work life and our businesses, it felt like the right time to invite you onto the show.

So I’d like to start with where you find yourself in your life at this moment. Tell us a bit more about your current life and work context.

Pamela Slim: [00:07:56]

Oh, this is a timing to ask that question. I have just about every part of life shifting. So I’ll give you a little insight into life and then also work as many times they’re, they’re very related.

So Um, so I think life wise, I’m 58 and my daughter, Angie, who’s now a senior in high school is getting prepared to go to college. I have a 19 year old, who’s a sophomore in college, Joshua, who’s in Denver. And then I have a, who I call my bonus son, my stepson, Jeffrey, who is a 39, who’s an artist in Phoenix.

So I’m going to be an empty nester. In the year in which this podcast comes out, my daughter’s going to be going to school in Paris, which is very exciting, so I plan on spending a lot more time there, because I love Paris, and speak French, and want to travel some more.

So I know that’s going to be a really big shift personally to be an empty nester.

I’m also, you know, as my husband and I were saying, really graduating out of marriage. So we are actually ending our marriage relationship with each other, but just shifting to be friends and co parents. So that’s another like major shift that’s happening.

And so it’s just, it’s always interesting to me kind of looking back at, you know, my own body of work and things that have shifted in time. Uh, while some of these changes have been really difficult. And, you know, kind of, I have family members who have passed and it’s just, it’s sort of been one of these years in 2024, where pretty much everything that could happen did.

But, knowing when I walk through that, there’s a real excitement that I have to really redefining on my own terms, you know, what I want to do. I’ve always been a person of great adventure, a lot of travel in my early years. And so I really see it as something, uh, once I get through the hard parts, that are not fun, of kind of moving forward.

So all of this personal stuff is kind of in the backdrop of what feels like one of the most exciting shifts that I’ve been making in my body of work over the last couple of years. Which is moving from primarily being a business coach and advisor for many amazing individuals and really shifting into an agency model, where what I’ve seen in trends and the workplace is a move for many service providers from really just, you know, ending up delivering direct services and maybe building a bigger consulting company, to productised services, scalable IP and certifications and licensing of content.

So the last couple of years we’ve really been building up that business. And, especially with the advent of AI and all the impact that it has, it just feels like the most interesting ripe moment where we’re moving in a direction that feels like all the trends in the workforce and in entrepreneurship is moving.

So that part is exceptionally exciting. We’re just working with so many cool thought leaders. And so, as I said, you asked for it, you got it. Everything is changing and, uh, and that’s okay.

Mich Bondesio: [00:10:52]

Wow, you’re certainly right. There is a lot going on.

I think it’s fascinating the work that you do, and you’ve always been really at the forefront of noticing changing trends and being able to step up and explore them. And I think that that’s a really key part, which appears in your work and in your actions, is that sign of curiosity. Let’s see where this goes. What’s happening here. And even though things are scary, curiosity trumps fear every time, because it opens you up.

So I love that you’re being open to these really dramatic changes that are happening in your life and your work.

So one of the four pillars of creating cadence is about building strong foundations so we can be resilient and sustained over the long haul when we are facing dramatic change. Um, and these activities are things that support our health and wellbeing, they help us manage our stress and they help us be more creative and productive.

What are your regular rituals and routines that help you to show up as your best self and what challenges do you experience, if any, in maintaining those foundations?

Pamela Slim: [00:11:53]

I have a very nice regular routine. I now work out of a home office. So for eight years, I ran a community space downtown Mesa where I live. And so I would drive into the workplace and when I was driving in the nice weather, which is most of the time here in Arizona, I would take the top down to my mini Cooper and I would listen to good podcasts. Seven Figure Small is one of my favorite ones from Brian and Jerod, and listen and learn. I always love that travel time between leaving the house and going into the office. So that was a bit of a ritual. And then I am funny. I just, I have certain things I, plug in my fountain where I have running water.

I light a candle. I have a little inspirational kind of card that I pull each day that I’ll stop and like read aloud to ground myself. And I like to have really good coffee that’s very fresh and hot right by my side, review my passion planner, uh, and just see exactly what it is that I have to cover during the day.

And it’s just, pretty small things, but it really sets a nice pattern. Now that I have my home office, I walk out my back door. My office is up above the garage, so I go outside for a moment and walk up the steps. Now I just take a moment to look back, there are these really beautiful mountains beyond our house, and so I’ll take a moment just to pause and look at that. Then I enter in my office and then I do all those things I just mentioned that, that just helped me to feel grounded. And it’s funny, if I start a call without lighting the candle, all of a sudden, I feel like something is off. I’ve been known to say, wait a minute, before we get into details, let me just light my candle here. It really, it really helps to keep things grounded.

I think on the, the other side at the end of the day, After I look and make sure that I have covered everything, it’s really important to me to shut things off and to leave the office and go downstairs. I rarely work well in the evenings. If I have to do something, I will, but I really like to be present now that it’s me and my daughter and just hang out and enjoy the evening.

Mich Bondesio: [00:13:56]

Oh, fantastic. I am a firm believer in little rituals, you know, and you write it in one of your books, The Widest Net, about your tiny marketing actions. And these are the same things. These tiny actions really can have a very powerful effect in helping to ground you, and helping you to focus and get really centred for the work that you have to do for the day. Yeah.Thank you for sharing those.

So on top of writing three books, you have a diverse range of experience. From working in corporate to supporting small business owners and entrepreneurs with teaching, coaching, and training, and so much more. It sounds like things are moving in new directions. In your book, the body of work, I love that you talk all about finding the threads that tie our career stories together, and you have a very stirring call to action on your website, which is that we have the power to shape our world, through our work.

Can you share a bit more about your career story and journey towards building a more sustainable business for you and a more meaningful way of working?

Pamela Slim: [00:14:49]

Yes. It’s been interesting in looking at the threads of my career now that I’ve been at it for many years, 28 years working for myself, and then a number of years before then in corporate. My early degree in college was international service and development with a focus on non-formal education as a tool for social and economic change.

It’s a lot to say in one mouthful, but a lot of it was studying systems of change, particularly economic development in Latin America, which is where I studied. And so while it may seem like it’s something far away from what I’m doing now, actually there are many, many threads that informed a lot of the work that I did in the early stage of my career.

I decided early on that I didn’t want to be an expatriate aid worker. I didn’t really agree philosophically with that model. I thought it was much better to be supporting folks from that country who have a much better idea of what to do and just provide, you know, resources or access that way.

And so it brought me into overall the world of training and development. And so that was an early part of my career. I loved, uh, even though I wrote the book Escape From Cubicle Nation, I loved my cubicle.

The last real job I had was director of training and development at Barclays Global Investors. And I really enjoyed it. I had an amazing team and then spent about 10 years as a management consultant, primarily building training programs for large companies as an outsourced provider and consultant. That’s where I worked with Darren Padilla, who now I’m working with again in my certification agency.

So that was really fun, interesting work. We just did all kinds of, you know, engaging work that way. And, what I got, I think for a thread there, always having a lens of community development, change, but that is usually based more of an ecosystem- based approach to change. When I was doing organisational work, there’s a lot of powerful systems thinking that happens when you’re building a program, thinking about the experience of multiple people and how change happens.

So there’s always been that thread that really went through the early stages of business. And then in 2005, when I. Decided to go full time into coaching with Escape From Cubicle Nation, which was my first, it was a blog and then became my first book. That’s where I had met so many people who wanted to leave their corporate life to start a business.

And I found, again, I was weaving through a lot of the strategic business analysis that I had of helping people quickly, sort through, take note of things. And my entrepreneurial experience, I ran a non-profit martial art school with the executive director who was from Brazil. It was Capoeira, the Afro Brazilian martial art.

So that, I didn’t realise that was a very entrepreneurial experience of doing that. It was a volunteer executive director, but I did, you know, all kinds of fundraising and program development and all that. So that was, I think, another piece that really helped in the entrepreneurial world.

So through the years I’ve noticed there is a common thread First of really just focusing on work that is meaningful and important.

So where Escape really was that book that helped people to just leave a work mode that they didn’t enjoy to go on and be stable working for themselves. I said, Body of Work is really that love letter to creation in the way it specifically relates to that quote on my website is …everybody works in different ways.

You know, some people are just pure community organisers working through people. I often really see change through the lens of great IP, intellectual property. It sounds so boring, but like that’s the way that I’m wired. I love methods, models, programs, and I noticed that in the world of work. It’s the area where I feel like I can have the biggest impact and do something that not only might put forth better models.

So for example, you know, we work with, we work with Eduardo Briceño, who is a amazing Venezuelan thought leader, who lives in the Bay area, who does work around growth mindset, who worked with Carol Dweck. Many people know her from that great work. Really helping to infuse organisations with amazing thought leadership and IP. We work with thought leaders that are doing work around embodied, mindful practices for educators. And so, in that work, it feels like when we are helping our clients to get their great IP out in the world, we’re making the world a better place, that they’re facilitating. But then we’re really using our energy and our knowledge to make that work easier and then to give them financial stability as well, to be kind of working that. So that I think is, is the thread.

And then The Widest Net, you know, it just kind of the work evolves when you know what you want to create. The Widest Net is how do you bring it forth in a way that is beneficial for your clients that goes directly back to the work that I did, you know, as more of a community builder of looking at an ecosystem way of building a business. So it’s, it’s always like, Easier to look back from where we are today and to see the thread what I’ve come to pay attention to and you raised it before, it’s a bit of a blessing and a curse that like I feel in some ways like I see the future.

I don’t have a crystal ball and you know, I’m not a fortune teller, but I I just seem to see trends before many other people do. So writing Escape From Cubicle Nation that came out in 2009, we had the great resignation in 2021, you know, where it feels like everybody was fully prepared for that.

Writing Body of Work in 2014, then we’ve had all the coming like creator economy and all this focus on creation.

The Widest Net ecosystem approach to doing things. Our SaaS friends, people who sell software as a service, I think have understood this better than most early on, but I find that for a lot of other business owners, everybody was still thinking in empires. You know, I must build my own individual empire. So for me, the work just kind of whispers to me, I actually have the next book already that has whispered strongly to me. So I’m just slowly working on that.

Mich Bondesio: [00:20:53] That’s exciting.

Pamela Slim: [00:20:54]

I won’t, I won’t bury the lead. You know, this one is more need I say ‘self help’. It’s called Remember Who You Are. And when I think about doing all the work and taking on a big challenge and walking through life the way I have in 2024, the way to do it is to have a very specific understanding of really remembering who you are in the unique way that you’re wired. And I spent a lot of my time as a coach encouraging people to keep going through the hard times. To really know that it is worth it to be building this work.

Without this encouragement, it is very hard to complete it. So, it’s one of the things I appreciate that it just begins to emerge. And as I said, with all the changes happening with me, it’ll be very interesting to see these next directions, cause I feel like there’s a whole bunch of factors that just have a big open door of possibility, which I work very well in those conditions.

Mich Bondesio: [00:21:48]

Well, you’ve certainly got skills there. I’m very excited to hear there’s another book coming. And talking about your experience and the threads, I think that’s something that we discount often. We don’t realise that nothing in our experience across our life is ever wasted. It all contributes to who we end up becoming and how we help people.

And as you so rightly put, very often things come full circle. They come back to the strong points, to the points of interest that are important to you.

You spoke a lot about community development and collaboration within community, and sustainable businesses can mean different things to different people.

One key term relating to sustainable businesses is this idea of the triple bottom line, supporting people, planet and profit. They’re very interlinked. You know, you’re deeply involved in social enterprise projects. You’ve mentioned about the community-focused work. Why do you think that this idea of sustainability and building a sustainable business, and the triple bottom line, are important in our current social and economic landscape?

Pamela Slim: [00:22:48]

To be very direct about it. We will not have a world to operate in if we do not address it. I was raised by my mom and dad, but influenced a lot by my dad who was a environmentalist way back early before many people were talking about it. He started one of the first curbside recycling programs in San Anselmo, California, in 1971, the first one in the whole state of California.

So. I have been surrounded by my family who is very passionate about that. My brother and sister-in-law are isotope geochemists and they started an environmental program at the University of Pittsburgh where they teach. So I’ve just sort of been surrounded by a lot of that growing up. And then with the work that I’ve done over time, I have learned so much about all the ways in which we are really putting ourselves in just about every way at risk and in danger.

So there’s our own, you know, physical wellbeing of everything that we’re doing to ourselves as we’re glued to our phones and just working, working, working. I mean, some of the global stories are just bone chilling. You know, when you hear people here in the U S not that long ago was maybe a month ago or something, there was a woman working at a local bank and she passed away at her desk and nobody even noticed for like four days. So it was like around a Friday morning or something and nobody even noticed until a Monday afternoon. You know, we hear about cases that happen in places where work is just so stressful.

You have young 27 year old investment bankers or something, you know, that don’t sleep and they end up really damaging their health, or even passing away. So there’s a lot of things I think about our work culture that we’ve recognized are not healthy, just on the individual level and the collective.

On the earth level, it is so amazing to see, and disquieting, how many impacts that we see of global warming and the floods, the fires, the hurricanes, you know, things that are just happening more and more. So as a parent, I want my kids to be able to have a world that still has, you know, healthy air and water and all of that kind of thing. I feel like it’s our responsibility to take that care.

But really, I do not know if we’re going to make it. I don’t. And I like to remain optimistic. I’m one that always tries to work on the positive side of change, but my own country here in the US, we’re sort of taking a 180 degree shift of a lot of progress that has been made in that direction.

I have a feeling that it will be unraveled, which even if we end up having a different, you know, change of guard within four years, there’s a lot that can happen during that time in terms of just, you know, unregulated pollution and all those kind of things that can end up really having a terrible consequence.

So, if we’re not all at each other, just on the human level, which is another dynamic I’m seeing all over the world and definitely within my country, that that is something else I see elsewhere. So if I hang out too long in that space, I feel like my whole insides and motivation just shrivels up and I just want to get under a weighted blanket and watch, you know, rom coms on Netflix with happy endings. Which is why I think it’s important to look at the big picture and realise the seriousness of what’s happening. And then to focus every day on what can we do to make something better.

Cause if the earth is just going to say, forget all of you, just kick us all off, burn us all up, whatever she’s going to do, or if we do it to ourselves, you know, through weapons of war, the earth is going to continue on. Like she will figure out a way to regenerate. Maybe over millions of years, I don’t want the damage to occur, but I feel like the strength to recover and rejuvenate is there. The problem is us as human and the ways that we behaved.

So it’s a very long answer to looking specifically to something like a triple bottom line. But I think it is very germane to decisions that we make, if we’re not If we’re not considering impacts in the work that we do ,and really weaving it in, it is very unlikely that we’re ever going to get to a positive outcome.

Mich Bondesio: [00:27:01]

Yeah. I think a very, um, honest, frank answer. Thank you so much. But it’s the truth. I agree.

You know, we all have to take action and we all, we all have to be hopeful. Take it from a place of, uh, Brad Stuhlberg talks about taking wise action from a place of wise hope. So knowing the reality. Working with it.

So in a broader view, the concept of creating cadence is also about how we create a more flexible rhythm and flow in our work lives in a way that’s more meaningful and supportive and sustainable with the work that you do. How do you think that helps your clients and customers create more momentum in their lives or their business in a way that’s more effective, meaningful and long lasting?

Pamela Slim: [00:27:42]

To me, it’s directly tied to the way that we are working with them to do productised services. And so where you think about being able to more easily conceptualise and sell a solution that doesn’t require just trading, you know, dollars for hours, that is really intelligently designed. So based on what somebody wants to do, you’ve really thought about a lot of not only what will sell in the marketplace, but also what are sustainable things that people want to do?

It’s going to look very different for different people. Some people want a small group of wonderful clients in which they do very specific hands on work according to a nice rhythm and a cadence, and they feel great satisfaction completing that work, not needing to scale and do a number of other things. They still really enjoy being the person who delivers the service.

There are other people who really want to get out of that. So that’s where we say your methodology, your IP can really stand alone a lot, if you get it out of your head and into different methodologies and systems other people can use, that’s a way that you can get back a lot of your time and energy and be very deliberate with making sure that your ideas can travel much farther. And then you won’t have to be so personally taxed.

I know in the recent, you know, couple of weeks, it’s been a challenging year overall, but especially the recent couple of weeks when I lost my sister on November 6th, it was, I was so grateful to have my team in place, you know, there were other people who could step in and take care of certain things.

And I just noticed in a very stark way that my coaching clients are amazing and I really appreciate them. They made it easy where I could just move those appointments, you know, out a week or so to give me a little bit of time. But in doing that, I realised like, oh, it’s so wonderful if I were only to have project work for this stage of my life. If ,let’s say I want to visit my daughter in Paris a few times a year and hang out for six weeks each time. And, you know, travel other places, go to Scotland and go write in the castle or something like that, that I could do it without worrying about the trading time for money.

So there is something that I found that’s really magical and grounding in thinking through very deliberately, What do you offer? What’s the methodology behind it? How can you create, really sell it, as more of like a productised service. And then to backfill in the case that you, the human, are unable to show up for whatever reason that you have other people who could step in and still keep your viable business going.

I think all businesses are honourable. There’s nothing wrong at all with having a really strong, maybe a freelance-based business. Think there’s a lot of entrepreneurial shaming around that I think is just ridiculous. But, it does mean that if you are building your IP and your ideas into methodology, you can be at a place where you personally do not need to be in the delivery at all, or eventually you could sell it, which is something that a lot of folks I work with are really interested in, especially those that are at my age and thinking about next chapters of work.

Mich Bondesio: [00:30:46]

Fascinating and really interesting that you’ve mentioned that. I mean, I am a solo entrepreneur by choice. I don’t want a large team, but I do want to be able to scale my business. The only way I can do that is to productise and to leverage technology. And it’s something I’m still working through myself. There are definitely challenges, but also a lot of joy around the fact that I can, as you say, choose to design how a lot of my workday flows, because I can choose when I work, how I work in a way that can support my wellbeing better.

I’m very sorry to hear about your sister. My condolences on that.

Pamela Slim: [00:31:19]

Thank you. I’m glad that you had the team around you to support you on that. And I think something that you raised that was interesting as well is the world of work is changing a lot in terms of business structures. We are very much moving more into a gig economy and into individuals running businesses as opposed to larger teams.

Mich Bondesio: [00:31:38]

They may well collaborate together to take on bigger work. There’s a lot more of this kind of thing happening. So I think what you’ve mentioned around productising and looking at different systems and structures and keeping it simple is so, so important for us to take note of. Thank you.

So a final question for you based on your journey through life and work so far.

Do you have any words of advice or key lessons you’d like to share with listeners based on your experience?

Pamela Slim: [00:32:03]

Well, it will sound like an early promotion for my next book, but remember who you are.

It is, it’s one of the really powerful opportunities that really doesn’t matter how old you are, when you take time to really know yourself and know how you’re wired, what you need, what energises you? What are the kinds of ways in which you really can be making decisions based on your own wellbeing, while really remaining open to other things?

As I mentioned, growth mindset before with Eduardo Briceño, one of our clients, it’s just so striking. The more that I, you know, work on that project and realise how powerful it can be, where you have a frame of really knowing and respecting who you are. So if anybody’s giving you advice for what you should be doing, you have very clear discernment for what you want to do, while at the same time being open and curious so that when things happen, Like I just had, I say, this is my year of like living as a country song. Here US country songs are usually, you know, everything bad in the world, my dog died and my wife left and my truck tire broke down, you know, all that.

It just, it feels like so many things have happened, you know, for some weird reason, after decades of hardly anything happening, you know, to me at all. I think why I’m still standing and have a sense of humour and I’m able to move forward is because of the tools that I have developed through time as a coach, as somebody with self awareness. I really know how to take care of myself.

The times where I need to be completely be offline. The times where it can actually be more helpful to have something to focus on besides necessarily right sitting and looking at the things that are not working. Just having that discernment, I think, is something that is really helpful.

And then, with that lens toward curiosity and not having toxic positivity or gaslighting yourself. It’s okay to feel like this is very hard. And, you know, I’m experiencing a difficult emotion. But to me, to look at it in the context of my whole life and my body of work, there’ve been other times where I’ve gone through some real big challenges. And now I see in retrospect, how that opened doors that I had no idea were ever going to open.

So that part of it is like, even in, in the hardest times, it’s, really helpful to know what I know for sure is that there are really cool things that are happening that I never even imagined. And, it’s funny, I’m going to Bogota, Colombia, where I studied as a senior in college when I was studying international development.

And maybe, you know, by chance or by I don’t know, magic, For some reason, a speakers bureau in Spain found me, reached out, and I’m going to go speak there again after almost 40 years of being gone. And it’s just this little nudge and wink from the universe for me of you know, this is one example of opportunities when I’m an empty nester and my daughter’s no longer here, that I’ll be able to travel more.

Realising there’ll be about a thousand micro business owners, small business owners. Here’s this whole amazing market and an audience who I can really share with that’s opening new doors. And I find that all the time, you know, even just kind of not losing your sense of possibility and of magic winks, no matter what it is that’s happening. Cause at the end of the day, it’s just, that’s all that we have is our ability to be telling a story that feels true, but also feels encouraging about our own life and about our body of work.

Mich Bondesio: [00:35:37]

Oh, absolutely. And you’ve put that so beautifully. I think, you know, the energy we put out in the world is what often comes back to us. And you’ve spoken so beautifully there about glimmers and being open for them. And I just wanted to say about the points you made around that self awareness and how important that is to understand that we have got the capability to find our ways through challenging times and that challenging things that happen in one part of our life don’t necessarily need to infiltrate the other parts. There could be amazing things still happening in other areas.

You mentioned earlier about, you know, entrepreneurial loneliness and how it’s really important to have that support network. And I think that also starts with that self leadership piece and being your own cheerleader first, because It’s important to have the community, but you also need to truly believe in what you’re doing to get through the hard times.

So really important points you’ve made there. Thank you so much, Pam.

All right. So as we’re at the end now, where can people find you online? And do you have anything interesting coming up to share aside from this book?

Pamela Slim: [00:36:40]

Yes. Which may take me a while to write. So we will see. But you can find me at pamelaslim.com, which is where I have all information. LinkedIn is my preferred social network, if folks want to connect over there, I always love to engage on LinkedIn. And then we do have two cohort based classes that are coming up early 2025.

One is “Tiny Marketing Actions” that you mentioned before. That’s a really fun methodology for taking action in your business in a way that feels easy and effective. It’ll be, I think the ninth time that I’ve done this cohort and I love it more every time. It always makes me market more. As I’m teaching it. I’m always doing more tiny marketing actions.

And then the other one we have also starting in January 25 is “Productise Your Service Business”. So this is for folks who want to, lean in and work hands on with me and my two business partners, Darren Padilla and Josiah Owens. And so we look really deep into your methodology and try to streamline everything so that you have a really solid base to begin to do that productisation.

It really comes out of the work we’ve done in the agency for certifications, where some people never quite took the time to make sure that the methodology was really solid. So it’s a really fun, very hands on class where we get all inside your methodology. And so you can walk away feeling much better and more clear about what it is that you’re offering.

So those are always really fun ways to work together.

Mich Bondesio: [00:38:06]

That’s fantastic. Thank you. And we’ll definitely share all of those links in the show notes that people can check them all out. Pam, thank you so much for your time and your lovely, lovely insights. I’ve really enjoyed chatting with you today.

Pamela Slim: [00:38:16]

Likewise. Thanks for having me

Mich Bondesio: [00:38:18]

What a super interview to start off season 12.

Coming out of what was a tough year in 2024 for many of us and having the aspirations that I’m sure we all do for better outcomes in 2025, I hope that you’ll take note of the lessons and insights that Pam shared around resilience, discernment self-awareness and understanding the patterns and threads that traverse our lives and how we can leverage them to improve and activate our impact in the world.

When we truly know ourselves, when we know what brings us joy, what keeps us strong and what fuels us to do good work, and when we understand the unique value we bring to the world, then we’re better placed to amplify our impact and help those who will benefit the most from what we do.

In the next episode, I’ll be chatting with Dr. Zoe Detko, the founder of Ardea Eco-innovation, and I’m sure you’ll love her enthusiasm for building more sustainable businesses as much as I did.