Ep. 73 – Dr. Zoe Detko – The Ripple Effect

Interview with Zoe Detko

[00:08:18] Mich Bondesio:

So welcome Zoe. It’s lovely to have you on the show.

[00:08:21] Zoe Detko:

Thank you. It’s lovely to be here.

[00:08:22] Mich Bondesio:

Awesome. So some context for my audience. I first became familiar with your work in March, 2024, when you did a talk at my coworking space, Society1 as part of a tech series that they run. And in that talk, you spoke about the carbon footprint that small businesses can have without realising it. And I’ve always been pro environment and on a personal level, I do try to reduce my footprint.

But looking back, I think your talk was the spark for me to decide that this was the right point in time for me to start making active change in my business. I’ve always wanted to take the journey towards becoming B Corp and this year I decided to become B Corp.

So, I’ve followed your work ever since that. And in November 2024, I attended another session that you gave at Fraser House for the Women in Lancaster Digital Network, founded by Alice Ashcroft. And in that session, you shared so many helpful ways for us to consider our approach to building a more sustainable business.

And to be honest, that blew my mind because you’re so inspiring in the way that you approach these challenges.

So, because of the journey I’m on, your work is even more relevant now to how things are shifting in my business. But before we get to that, because we will talk about that a bit more, let’s first start with where you find yourself in your life and work at this moment. Tell us more about your current context.

[00:09:35] Zoe Detko:

My context. So yeah. So at the moment I, I would consider myself a carbon accountant, sustainability professional, you know, I don’t, I don’t have a title. Low carbon specialist I go with a lot. But yeah, so pretty much, I’m just a mum of two girls running a business. And doing what I love, what I have studied for a long time, and what I am incredibly passionate about and hopefully along the way kind of inspiring that passion in other people. Now, a lot of what I do is around compliance and what people have to do and my goal is always to make it something that they want to do as well as it being something they have to do.

[00:10:14] Mich Bondesio:

Fantastic. And I would say that I don’t think just being a mum of two girls, it’s never just, I’m sure there’s a lot of work associated with that too.

[00:10:23] Zoe Detko:

Yeah, yeah, well I’m actually very lucky in that because of the way that the business is going, my husband has been able to leave his job and he is now part-time dog’s body for me and part-time stay at home dad. So, you know, all school runs, we get a sheep costume for tomorrow. you know, bake sale, he takes all that over. So I’m very lucky that I get to kind of run with my passion whilst, you know, everything’s taken care of.

[00:10:51] Mich Bondesio:

And it’s great that you’ve been able to design a business that’s flexible to fit around those needs, which is great to see.

[00:10:57] Mich Bondesio:

So, from what I see on LinkedIn, you have a very busy work life. You’re a popular speaker in demand for talks and panels. And aside from your direct client work with Ardea, I’m aware that you also collaborate with several public sector stakeholders as well.

You seem to have huge amounts of natural energy, but on top of being a busy mum, I’m presuming it can also become quite taxing. And one of the four pillars of creating cadence is about building strong foundations around self care that support our health and our wellbeing and our productivity, so that we can be resilient, and sustain over the long haul. And keep building momentum and moving forwards, even when certain parts of our life are demanding more than the rest.

So I’m interested to know what are your regular or daily activities and rituals and routines that help you to show up as your best self? And what challenges do you experience, if any, in maintaining your foundations?

[00:11:45] Zoe Detko:

Yeah. Okay, I love this question because, you know, as I say, I speak a lot about what I do and stuff like that, but it’s really interesting to kind of look at how I do, all that stuff. and I think for me… if it’s nine o’clock and I don’t have a client deadline, you know, I do a lot of work with the NHS and tenders come out and suddenly we need to just bish, bash, bosh, get it done.

So those times I might be up until midnight, one, getting things done. If it’s not, the likelihood is that at 9:00 PM I am in bed with my Kindle. I. I have always been an incredibly passionate reader, I was very lucky that my parents kind of instilled that in me from a very young age. And reading, around 60 books a year is just something that, you know, I, I just can’t get enough of.

So finding good books, as soon as I find a new author I like. I’ll buy everything that they’ve done. and I rarely give up on a book, but I will give up on a book if I need to because that is my time now. Because, you know, I think I’m having to prioritise if I’m reading, it’s because I want to be, rather than trying to trudge through something.

So reading is I’d probably say my number one thing that I do that is just me. And you’ll very rarely see me anywhere without my Kindle in my bag. Outside of that you know, I’m very lucky that we live so close to Lake District and my in-laws have a caravan up in Pooley Bridge. So, jumping into cold water from the end of a pier, I could do that on repeat forever. And luckily the kids love it too, you know, getting the paddle boards out. So, in the summer months, that’s what I do. In the winter, I’m lucky that I have a gym that I’m a membership of that has those lovely spa water jets that you can you know, get cozy under. And the kids have swimming lessons there, so I can drop the kids off swimming lessons, go for myself.

And I think in terms of looking after myself, those are the things that I prioritise. I think sometimes you can kind of get into the loop of not doing things. As much as you get into the habit of doing things, sometimes you get into the habit of not doing them. And I think that, then you need to kind of like reset and go and do those things, for yourself again.

But also, you know, my kids are great, so I enjoy just hanging out with them. Surely that’s all my fault that they’re incredible, so, you know, I’m very proud of that They’re fun to be around. So yeah, I just, and again, like, it’s just the help knowing that my husband doesn’t have to go to work on Monday.

So on a Sunday afternoon, if I want to, I can sneak off for a nap, because I know that he can do that on Monday. You know, it’s, I’m very fortunate to have kind of built the business to be sustainable in a way that it can have that and like, you know, that’s something that’s part of our everyday life and I love a nap.

[00:14:36] Mich Bondesio:

Well, naps are very good for productivity.

[00:14:38] Zoe Detko:

I didn’t know that.

[00:14:39] Mich Bondesio:

They are indeed. Yes, they refresh your body and your mind so that you can start again. and I love what you’ve described about being a book lover. I am too, total bibliophile. And I find it’s a great way for me to manage my stress, is to switch off and escape into the imagination of some author’s wonderful world. It’s very special.

[00:15:01] Zoe Detko:

Yeah, I always, like, I always feel a bit funny saying book lover because I don’t own any books, but my Kindle is always there. Like, it’s that thing that if it breaks, it’s a new one the next day. That’s not very sustainable of me, but I can’t wait for it to be fixed. I cannot go a day without my Kindle and that shouldn’t be Amazon really, you know.

[00:15:19] Mich Bondesio:

I love what you’ve described about you seem to have an affinity to water and obviously being in the Lake District, it is a very, very special place, for those of my listeners who’ve never been there. I also love spending time there and it’s great that you have access to that with your family.

So Zoe, what I love about how you do your work and how you help educate people around net zero and carbon emission management and reduction is that you have this incredibly engaging way of making very technical and sometimes scary concepts a lot more easy to understand and a lot less threatening. And you’re super enthusiastic about your topics and it’s really infectious.

What made you decide to focus on emissions and the environment as part of your career path? Can you share a bit more about the backstory and your journey towards building a more sustainable business and a meaningful way of working?

[00:16:04] Zoe Detko:

The back story for me for getting into what I get into is actually quite the opposite, it’s about increasing emissions really. I chose the degree path that meant I could have as many field trips as possible. Yeah , so that was geography. And when I was on these field trips, I was in the jungle at one point in Belize, and we were there for six weeks. And one of the things that really struck a chord with me was that when we were going around the jungle, there were these particular plants I can’t remember what they’re called, but they’re very beautiful big fan leaves and They are used in, floristry, but they are illegally taken from certain bits of forest.

So whenever you saw one, you popped your finger through it, because it didn’t break the plant, the plant was fine and survived, but it made it completely worthless to, anyone wanting to take it, illegally. So, that then inspired, inspired this kind of interest in the law and the environment, and the way that we have policy and decisions around that.

And so, when I got back, it was time to choose a dissertation topic. So I started looking at neonicotinoids in bees. I was in Manchester at the time, so bees were very apt, and so yeah, I looked at neonicotinoids in bees, which then led me to my Master’s, which was in Conservation Biology with Zoo studies. Again, flew off to Madeira for a bit, to do some field studies there, and then, after my Masters, I, took a bit of a break from academia for a few months, got a real job and then was like no.

So I was on to findaphd.com, which is a real website. and looked and I literally sorted by funded, PhDs. And this one came up that was, looking at the impact of how we integrate the environment into planning and policy decisions. And it just looked like it couldn’t have been written more perfectly for me.

So I applied, I got in, and then spent the next four years doing that, a bit of time in Westminster as part of that. Yeah, I just really got stuck into how it is that in the UK we integrate the scales at which we integrate the environment and how we make decisions around the environment, in order to kind of pop them into planning and policy decisions.

[00:18:22] Zoe Detko:

And that’s, yeah, that’s how I got fascinated with what I do and became incredibly passionate about So it was mainly, ecosystem services I was looking at. So then, you know, that could be anything from biodiversity to, you know, how we manage water and, flood risk. And, but also carbon emissions, was something that then I got really passionate about, managed to get a job in Lancaster when I got married, which was looking at helping businesses reduce their emissions through, research and development.

And again, just was like, “this is perfect”. Got that job and stayed in that for six years doing that, and that was EU funded. So, once we left the EU, it was no longer funded. So, I left and started Ardea Eco-Innovation. And that’s how I kind of got to where I was. And, you know, and I’ve just feel so incredibly lucky that I get to do, you know, a job that I’ve been passionate about since I started beginning of Uni, you know, like it’s just something that’s really interested me. But, also I remember doing my geography A level. My A level teacher said that, you know, climate change isn’t real. It’s just the natural progression of the earth. I was like, I don’t know. So that sparked a bit of a love of research as well.

You know, I, I know that you’re wrong, but I need to know that you’re wrong. so yeah, that got, that started that kind of passion there as well. So it all kind of fell into place for me to be where I am today, doing what I do and spreading that passion.

[00:19:49] Mich Bondesio:

That’s a fascinating story. You’ve literally been around the world to bring you back home and everything seems to have fallen in place as you’ve described your journey. How fantastic. So I know that this term sustainability is overused, but it’s one that we all understand, which is why I also use it when I’m referring to things like sustainable business.

That term sustainable business can mean different things for different people. One key term relating to sustainable business is the idea of the triple bottom line of people, planet, and profit. They’re very much interlinked. Why do you think that this idea of the triple bottom line is important, particularly in our current social and economic landscape?

[00:20:28] Zoe Detko:

It’s so incredibly important, because I think you can’t have one without the other, really. You know, what I would always say in the situations when people are talking about, you know, I have businesses that are huge that are coming to me wanting to do the bare minimum for compliance.

And then I have businesses that are tiny that are coming to me. They’re like, please can help me be better. And for me, it’s always about, you know, fostering those people to make the profits, so that when they grow, they are being better for the planet. It’s all so intrinsically linked, because we can’t take one out and the other two flourish.

Like, there’s no planet, well, there is a planet without people, but we won’t get into that, you know. But there’s no profit without the people. And the planet, because then if we’re making profit, but the detriment of the planet that we don’t have a planet. You know, it was all so incredibly interlinked and it’s so important. And I love the term sustainability and I wish that it could be something that we,… I think we’ve had a conversation about this before but like I struggle to use it in my work life because, for me, the meaning is so broad.

It means modern slavery, social value, you know, there’s so much more to it than just the environment. And, in my world, it’s often taken as being the environment. But I don’t feel professionally that I can say “I can make you more sustainable” because my intrinsic expertise are in making you better for the environment.

So, you know, I know people that can help with all the other stuff, but that’s not what I do. And all of it is so incredibly important that I love the term sustainability, because when someone is truly working towards being more sustainable, you know that they are taking into consideration the people, not just the people that work for them, but the people in their local communities, the people who they buy their products from, the places where they are manufacturing their products.

And then they’re also getting profit, but if you’re taking into consideration all those other things, then you know that that profit isn’t just going into one person’s pocket for them to get richer and richer and richer. It’s to enrich the lives of other people, to enrich the planet. And so it’s, yeah, it’s incredibly valuable because you can’t have one without the other.

[00:22:47] Mich Bondesio:

So I agree with you. And I think very often if we’re focusing on profit first or profit alone, that’s a very short sighted view, and we have to be taking the longer-term view in terms of our future, not just as a business, you know, all businesses that we run, but also the impact they have, as you say, on social and planetary aspects.

So, in a broader view, the concept of creating cadence is all about moving forward and building momentum, how we create more of a flexible rhythm and flow in our work lives in a way that’s also meaningful from a purpose driven perspective, but which can also sustain us over the long haul. And that applies to us as people at work, but also to how we run our businesses and produce our products and service our clients.

How does what you do help your clients and customers to create more momentum in their lives? Do you think, or in their businesses in a way that’s more effective and meaningful and sustainable and long lasting?

[00:23:40] Zoe Detko:

So I think what I do kind of intrinsically works on that, you know, I start people with the environment. Or, I’ll have clients that come to me just because they need to be compliant, and so they can win the NHS tender that they’re bidding for.

What they don’t know that, well, maybe they do know, that’s why they come to me. But by coming to me to get you to compliant, you will also have conversations about the culture in your business. You will have conversations about how we can integrate this at every level. You know, a carbon reduction plan for the NHS has to be signed off at Director level. I want it to be everyone in the business.

So I will talk to you about that and how you could then incorporate everyone’s function within the business, in order to reduce your emissions. I think that that then makes you more sustainable because you’re looking at the people as well. You’re not just looking at how you can be better for the planet.

And the NHS as well also looks at social value. So like, what are we doing outside of your business? What is, how is your business contributing to society? There’s so much more than just the environmental piece, but it’s the environmental piece that often brings people into this conversation, in order to be compliant, to, be able to bid to certain tenders, to be able to be under a certain procurement framework.

That’s what gets you there, but while I’ve got you here, why don’t we? So I kind of like to build out. You know, you have to have a certain amount of actions for your carbon reduction plan. So I will build them in a way that can be actioned. I’m not going to, you know, there are a lot of tools out there that kind of do what I do, in a certain sense.

But, you know, if that tool doesn’t know much about your ecosystem or who you know, or where you’re placed, then it might tell you to encourage your staff to get to work via public transport. But because we’ve had a conversation, I know for a fact that your manufacturing site is in the middle of nowhere, and that’s not going to be helpful to anyone. What we need to do is focus on something else.

[00:25:44] Mich Bondesio:

So I think that’s really interesting what you’ve pointed out in terms of the environmental piece is kind of the gateway to then developing a more holistic approach to how you look at your business. And as you said, it isn’t a cookie cutter approach. It actually is very niche or individual in terms of what a business’s requirements might be.

[00:26:04] Zoe Detko:

As well, what I also try and do is look at the wider ecosystem. One of the places where you will find most emissions, in your business will be in your supply chain. It will be in the things that you buy, and the people that you buy them from and the people that you sell to.

So what I try and do is rather than say, you know, “shop around, find someone new to buy that from”. I’ll say, “how about we talk to that person and let’s see what we can do with them”. And it’s building that.

I think one of the hardest things to do. So if you already have people that you work with that you trust and they trust you, then there’s no point shopping around. What we’ll do is we’ll help them be better so that then ultimately you’re better. And it’s about that kind of strong line that you’ve already built in your business, of trust, of being an honest broker of, you know, you’ve built that and that’s taken time. Let’s not just destroy it because we’re trying to be better for the planet.

That’s not sustainable. So, it’s looking at that kind of bigger picture like who can we talk to? What organisation can we bring in? How can I have an hour long conversation with your supply chain and help them calculate their emissions, so that you have an accurate idea of what your emissions are?

You know, where can we start to snowball this? Well, what I call it really, when I do my work, is “the ripple effect”. You know, we start in the middle with your business, and then we look around, and then we look a bit further, and then we look a bit further. And it’s not just that we’re looking for those places where you can reduce your emissions.

What’s happening is you’re just influencing by doing it yourself. So if you are out there and you shout about what you do, and I have a lot of clients that will refuse to shout about what they do now that we’ve got the Green Claims Directive. It’s scary for some bigger companies to do that.

But, we have ways around that, and I have contacts who are incredible in this space. But, if you just say that you’re doing it, one, you’re going to be way more committed to doing it, because you’ve said you’re doing it. And two, you’re going to inspire other people. And whether that’s because they want to be better than you. Or whether that’s because they want to work with you. Or whether that’s just because they hadn’t even heard that this was an option yet, and now that they’ve realised that in their sector this is an option.So shouting about it, that’s where your influence creates this ripple effect. In order for you to then reduce your emissions. Because, you know, you’ve helped other people do it. And they buy from you. You sell to them. You know, you buy from them. And as such, they are your emissions as well.

[00:28:38] Mich Bondesio:

Hmm. That’s so interesting. and so important, you know, I think very often we feel like we have to take charge of this as an island amidst a sea of people and businesses doing other things, but collaboration sits at the heart of innovation. And if we can bring everybody along on the ride, it’s going to be a lot more fun for all of us.

[00:28:56] Zoe Detko:

So much easier.. collaboration is, I think, it’s the only way to do it, because ultimately your emissions are someone else’s emissions, and someone else’s emissions are your emissions. That’s how it works and that’s how we can use influence to reduce them.

[00:29:10] Mich Bondesio:

Mm. Thank you. So final question for you then, based on your journey through life and work so far, what words of advice or key lessons would you share with my listeners based on your experience?

[00:29:21] Zoe Detko:

Can I use a Dolly Parton quote?

I’m a big Dolly Parton fan and I think I’ve lived by this quite significantly is “find out who you are and do it on purpose.” And I just love that. And I just think that there is absolutely no point in trying to live life for other people. If you find something that you’re passionate about, whatever it is, then you’ll always want to do it.

And it’s, you know, find something you love and you’ll never work a day in your life. But it is so true and it’s so true in so many other aspects of life as well. And I think for me, it’s so true in sustainability, like one of the little hints and tips that I always give to people that are kind of wanting to get into this space, but not really sure how.

It’s like, what are you passionate about? Like, what, what could you endlessly research? And then, you know, people love cricket. just people have such niche interests that look into that and how what they’re doing and what they’re doing in that space and how they’re doing things. And then it just provides that context for you in something that you know, that you know lots and lots of things about. Horticulture, you know, what’s happening in that world that you can then understand? And then you can see how that then will help you learn about how things can happen and then you can take that into your business life and go through it that way.

But yeah, I think. I always say that I’m incredibly lucky. And I remember, once my brother said to me, it’s like, “yeah, but you did lots of work to be really lucky to get to where you are . And I’m like, “yeah, I know, I did, but I’m really lucky that I get to do it”. And, I think what I’m lucky in is that I’ve just found something I’m passionate about, and I think that that is try everything, do everything, life’s for living, you know, I just feel a bit cheesy right now, but, I’m at a point with my kids where I’m just very much wanting them to foster what they’re interested in.

Granted they’re three and six, so they’re only little, but things start now. And I’m trying to find like active hobbies for them, that they enjoy. Team sports and that sort of thing. Like what, what can we get you to do that you would love to do? And particularly my six year old is very nervous. She’s very shy. She’s very anxious. So we’re just trying to find something for her that she enjoys, and we’ve recently found that swimming is something that she loves. She’s always refused to do swimming lessons, like, always refused, which, coming from a family who, her granddad is water polo coach, her great uncle literally water polo reffed at the Olympics, you know. They’re water people, these guys, my husband’s side.

But we’ve managed to, at the age of six, finally get her to do them, and she’s absolutely flying, and she just loves it and she’s so passionate about it and she’s like getting new badges and I feel so like she’s so,you know, it’s just finally finding those things. And so just try everything. Find the thing that clicks and just do it.

[00:32:09] Mich Bondesio:

Oh fantastic. I think she’s very lucky to have you as a role model as well, because you are emulating what it’s like to love your work and for it to be something enjoyable, and not a chore, or a drudge, which it is for some people. So you’re setting a great example for her as well in terms of finding your passion.

So Zoe, where can people find you online and do you have anything interesting coming up in terms of projects you’re working on?

[00:32:32] Zoe Detko:

So I have just launched an Instagram account, at It’s very new. I’m just starting it out because again, it’s that thing where, how do I get across this passion that I have? Like LinkedIn is great, but it can be a bit dry.

I’m also on, yeah, so LinkedIn, then from there, you’ll be able to find my website, which is long winded. So I won’t say it now. But,yeah, so those are probably the two best places to find me. I’m just creating content for Instagram, as we go. And yeah, hopefully that will be where the passion comes out, because that’s what I think makes me different from a tool, is that I absolutely love this.

[00:33:09] Mich Bondesio:

Well, thank you for the inspiration and I will share the links to all of your places in the show notes so people can find and follow you. Zoe, thank you so much for being on the show. I’ve really enjoyed speaking with you.

[00:33:19] Zoe Detko:

Thank you so much for having me. I’ve absolutely loved it.

Conclusions & Next Up

[00:33:21] Mich Bondesio:

I love Zoe’s holistic approach to the work she does. She sees the bigger picture and helps people to get started where they are, so they can sustainably build the momentum to get to where they need to be. I hope you take Zoe’s advice to heart, and add a bit of Dolly to your day.

And if you’re local to Lancashire, just a heads up that Zoe will be taking part in a panel discussion for Preston Tech Connection’s upcoming February meet up. The topic is “Tech and our Planet. Is tech our saviour or our downfall?” And that’s happening on Wednesday, the 12th of February at Society One. It’s free to attend and I’ll share a link in the show notes so you can book on.

In the next episode, I’ll be talking with Kyle Soo, Partnerships and Product Manager at B Lab UK.

Kyle is also a Design Council expert and Lego Serious Play facilitator.