Ep. 74 – Kyle Soo – A Dance Between Two Systems

Interview with Kyle Soo

Mich Bondesio:

[00:05:36] Hi, Kyle. Welcome to the Creating Cadence podcast. It’s lovely to have you on the show.

Kyle Soo:

[00:05:41] Hello, it’s good to be here.

Mich Bondesio:

[00:05:42] Great.

So before we get started, some context for my listeners.

I first heard you speak as part of an event called Stories Worth Hearing, hosted in Manchester by an innovation company called Magnetic in March, 2024. Then I got to chat to you at the B Corp festival that was held at the Wellbeing Farm in Lancashire in June, 2024.

And that event is what finally cemented my intention of starting my B Corp journey, which I’m now on. So, meeting you there led me to following you on LinkedIn, where you often share very thought provoking posts on a whole host of topics.

And as part of that, I was delighted to discover that you’re also a LEGO Serious Play™️ facilitator. I’m a huge fan of that methodology, having attended sessions as a participant and experiencing first-hand the transformation that it can help to unlock. But aside from those two roles, you also do loads of other things, and I’d like to delve into all of those things more during our conversation.

But first, let’s start with the here and now. Tell us more about your current context. Where do you find yourself in your life and work at this moment?

Kyle Soo:

[00:06:43]Yeah. Thank you, for, for that. And the, the summary, I kind of feel LinkedIn has naturally become a bit of a home for me at the moment in this sort of bio of these different things I’m doing in life as well. So it’s, it’s always interesting to kind of get the external perspective in terms of kind of what lands for other people as well.

So I think for me, I don’t like this answer these questions around like, what do you do, because I think this idea of being sort of defined by your job title is kind of a bit reductive. And so for me, I’ve been trying to explore kind of what’s the guiding thread or the golden thread in terms of my being and the direction of travel at the moment.

I think it’s, it centres around this question about why people come together, how people come together and do what they do. And so, what are the systems, the structures, the rules and rituals that guide those relationships? And it’s kind of been a bit of an obsession. And when I look back over my life, so from school through university, I’ve always been interested in these kinds of systems as well.

So I did Law of Politics at university and got really obsessed with trying to write the constitution for our law society. And because it’s like, this is how we govern each other and things like that. And also sort of geeking out on like political systems and stuff like that. So there’s kind of been a, a bit of a historical experience for me about this, which is kind of manifested in, in these questions today.

And so you talk about Lego Serious Play™️ as one of those examples where there’s opportunity for people to come together and learn and listen to each other. And so that’s kind of one of the exploratory angles I’ve got at the moment on that.

But I think kind of coming back to it,

So currently I work at B Lab UK, which is a home of the B Corp movement as you mentioned. And I think. In that space, it’s continuing that exploration in terms of how people come together in a business context, because it’s such an important, dominant part of our lives.

And again, in that space where we join as employees and as leaders, what kind of guides that decision making in terms of what we do; in terms of developing products and services; how we convene as organisations; and then outwardly, in terms of what we do to kind of work in this economic system.

And then the challenges that that brings about, in terms of some of the more extractive practices, in terms of people and planet. And then the effects that has in terms of the direction of travel we’re going in the future, which feels quite, quite dark and quite dangerous.

And I think for me, I’m obsessed with this question about what can we do to support that behaviour change for the future, but critically what we can do from today to practice those behaviours. Not wait for some far flung point in the future when everything becomes this utopian existence.

What can we do from today, to modify our own behaviours, how we interact with each other, and how we self manifest through our organisations to be better?

Mich Bondesio:

[00:09:39] That’s fascinating, I love your approach. Thank you for sharing.

So Kyle, you clearly juggle a lot of things. I get the impression that you are a super curious person. I’m a bit like that too, and it’s easy to find ourselves taking on more than what our energy levels can sometimes handle in our pursuit for learning and doing as part of feeding and appeasing that curiosity.

One of the four pillars of intentional productivity, which is my framework for creating cadence that I use with my clients, is about building strong foundations around self care, both inside and outside of work, that support our creativity, productivity, and wellbeing. So we can be more resilient and sustained over the long haul with less chance of falling prey to things like burnout.

That said, I think burnout can also be more prevalent in people who are purpose-driven and mission-led, because we feel the imperative of the mission deeply, and that sense of urgency, that time’s running out means that we try to keep going and try to do all the things.

You’ve spoken on LinkedIn a few times this past year about overwhelm and overload and experiencing signs of burnout yourself.

What challenges do you experience with maintaining those foundations? And what regular or daily activities, rituals, routines, and hobbies are you finding help you to support your wellbeing and performance better?

Kyle Soo:

[00:10:49] Yes. This is an area of active exploration for me because I’ve definitely not nailed it. And, uh, appreciate the summary there, and I think, yeah, the conclusion I’ve come to so far is kind of like the, the working hypothesis, which kind of bouncing off what you said a bit is, is the energy expenditure in dancing between two different systems.

And so we live in an existing world at the moment, which is, is very much focused on, you know, progression, promotion, individualism, trying to hustle your way through, obviously, you know, the classic kind of LinkedIn memes about this, you know, you wake up at 4am and you sort of go to the gym for two hours and then all this kind of stuff.

And it’s, it’s that kind of culture, which is coming out more, more recently as people say, taking pride in the fact that they don’t take lunch

Mich Bondesio:

[00:11:35] Yeah, it’s crazy.

Kyle Soo:

[00:11:37] And things like that. And it’s like, this kind of, macho way of being is, is still quite prevalent. And it feels distasteful for me, but equally that is the system as is, and if you disconnect from that, you don’t necessarily progress.

And I think we live in a world where we need to continue to earn and learn and develop, and if you don’t play the game, you kind of get left by the wayside. And so that, that’s grappling with in terms of how my life’s developing and going forward and feeling the necessity and urgency to kind of keep up in terms of just, just frankly how much money’s coming into the bank account and things like that. And so I’ve never necessarily had to grapple with that, because I’ve been in a fortunate position, sort of, moving into the world of law after university and things like that, to be comfortable. But recognising that as time goes on, it’s the the gap is becoming increasingly bigger.

And so, that’s where I find I need to expend more energy to play that game. But equally, as you were talking before about, in the mission-driven space, that obsession, and I’m going to use that word deliberately, the obsession with the question of how we do things better and work differently, is also incredibly intensive because I, I find contrast ironically to being a lawyer where I could do a nine to five existence in the civil service.

I’m always, always, always switched on, in this space. Everything is relevant when you’re trying to do economic systems change. Everything is of interest. And so that relentless curiosity is almost like being exposed to this kind of plethora of different inputs, and I think that’s, that’s quite challenging, is knowing when to dampen, to switch off, to reflect, pause, breathe.

And so that’s something, I’m sort of trying to grapple with. And you talk about the word cadence. So that’s, that’s something I’m still trying to figure out. And I find that I go through these cyclical patterns with this, where I’ll get to that point of just, just crashing and needing to reset. And I kind of felt I get to that stage where, yeah, it comes because I’ve overloaded too much rather than being a bit more intentional with it. And so I think that’s something I’m sort of trying to explore practically, in terms of what I’ve been trying to do better. I started a yoga practice just pre-pandemic, and trying to keep that up more regularly, in terms of sort of the exercise and the being in that space as well.

I don’t necessarily do things like meditation. I probably should do a bit more, but I find yoga is that kind of combination of the active and the reflective, which resonates with me, as well. And I think the, the second thing I would say, which I’ve been trying to practice more is that space of being in community with other people.

And so I have been running some experiments over the past year where I open up an appointment slot for everyone to and anyone to reach out to me to have a conversation every couple of weeks. And actually find those spaces where I’m meeting strangers to be really powerful points of again reflection, because people ask me about my story and it just forces me to think back and I find that actually that’s quite useful in a way to make sense of all these different dangling threads of my life. And so I find actually the practice of conversation, not knowing the answer, feeling around the edges with other people has been quite nourishing.

Mich Bondesio:

[00:15:03]Hmm, that’s a great word to describe it. And I love what you’ve shared there. Social interaction is a form of active rest. It’s been proven to help with stress management and also, what you were describing there about reflecting on your journey and where you are and what you’re doing, in a way it becomes a form of gratitude practice in realising, you know, what we have.

And again, that is another way to support our wellbeing. So great examples there. Thank you.

Let’s talk a bit more about your career journey so far and the shift towards supporting sustainable business and meaningful, impactful work.

You started as a lawyer, as you mentioned, what prompted the shift from doing that to a focus on B Corp, and at what point did Lego Serious Play, and we haven’t spoken yet about your role with organising Manchester’s Pecha Kucha sessions. At what point did all of those come about and why?

Kyle Soo:

[00:15:57] Yes, I always find there’s a, there’s a degree of sort of retrospective coherence when I look at these particular things, and it all sort of seems to, to fall into place and make sense. So I think it’s very much, with a lot of these things, it’s just feeling and dancing around the edges, and then it, everything seems to make sense.

So when I look back, actually, it kind of feels like there’s quite a good narrative pattern there. So, I think I’ll probably rewind very briefly back to my time at university. I mentioned I did Law of Politics. I did, one of those quizzes at school which tells you what job you should do. And I’m the only person who actually took it seriously.

So I had back in Year 8 this plan to probably go into architecture, because I love creativity and making things and building things. And when I did that, that little quiz, it said, “Oh, be a lawyer”. And I said, “Oh, this pays well, I’m going to do that”. So that dominated my life for a long time, and I don’t regret it in any particular wells.

It was interesting to me. Intellectually it combined the logic, the storytelling, I suppose the ego, certainly, within that. And, as I was going down that journey, I discovered politics, and I talked a bit before about the governance systems and how we operate and come together. And I was actually quite fascinated by that side of things, which prompted me to do law of politics at university in Manchester, because it combined sort of the legal side and also the political side. And just exploring, again, those those questions about different political systems. How historically we’ve grown and developed as in different countries and how we interrelate.

And off the back of the eye I worked at the serious fraud office. So I applied to work in the civil service as part of their kind of almost like a fast stream for for lawyers kind of programme because I thought, well, actually, I really like law. I really like politics. Where best to go where you see these, these very large subjects come together.

And so, I was expecting to kind of go and work in a constitutional department and looking at like those questions about electoral systems and things like that. And I found myself working in serious fraud office, in criminal law, which I always find slightly ironic because criminal law is my worst mark university.

But I found it was quite a fascinating place to be, because it combined, practically in terms of how the serious fraud office is set up, it combined kind of a investigatory function, a prosecutorial function, which is quite unique in the UK system because usually you’ve got investigatory elements, which is typically the police prosecutorial, which is usually the CPS and the two organisations are separate.

And back in the eighties, there was a report which suggested actually for serious complex fraud bribery cases because of their size, magnitude and complexity, having both in one department made sense. And so I got to do interesting things like go on searches of properties. I got to interview victims, witnesses and suspects. And also get to build up cases, which are multi-year cases, which are quite impactful in society. And so that kind of guided 10 years of my life going through that process.

But I found increasingly as I was in that role that It was sitting incongruently with my life as is, and I think really the point that changed everything was probably around 2015, 2016, when I… There’s a multitude of different factors, I actually kind of broke this down into a broken head, a broken heart and a broken hand. And so I was beginning to reconcile much more with my mental health state and stress and anger management, which kind of came to a head when I punched a wardrobe in frustration once and fractured my hand. And, also there’s a breakdown of my relationship.

And so all of these different turbulent factors were coming in, and I really felt at that moment I need to think why did I react in that way to have that moment of aggression, and why I wasn’t able to stop myself. And so I went and did Cognitive Behaviour Therapy. Started to reconcile with the fact that I was exhibiting OCD behaviours, which would become increasingly debilitating ’cause I was getting more stressed at work.

And so I needed that point to stop. And so, at the same time, I was beginning to explore different things like doing Pecha Kucha and events. And around 2016, politically we see Brexit, we see Trump. So societally, things were becoming destabilised and turbulent, for me personally in my reflection. So these multitude of factors forced me to stop. And so I applied for and began a social innovation course called “Year Here”. And this was the moment when the design, the creativity side started to kind of see back into my life, because I was drawn to it quite naturally. So I wanted to do something that would have meaning, would have societal impact and respond to the challenges that we were seeing in, in day-to-day life.

And, through that course, which was a 10-month course, which I’m going to dive into a bit more detail, I learned about things like design, service design, social innovation. I was like, “Oh wow, this is really interesting. It’s like using creativity to try and tackle societal issues”. And so I was just exposed this whole new sort of vista of, of ways of being.

And I realised what I was after that time and going back to law, I was like, I don’t want to be here anymore. So even though I was at the Serious Fraud Office and was tackling bad business, I was actually exposed to what good business could be. And so I really became obsessed with this idea of going into become a service designer and using design as a tool for good and building up our facilitation practices at the same time as well.

So that’s where Lego Serious Play starts to come into the fore, because, I really like lego and I really like the idea of bringing people together to explore these challenges and and so I was like, “oh, actually you can actually use lego to build better teams”. I was like, “I’m going to do that course”. So I did that.

Oh, that’s fascinating. Could you tell me a little bit more about the, I’m interested to know more about the course that you did. Oh, Year Here

Mich Bondesio:

[00:22:12] Year Here, there we go.

Kyle Soo:

[00:22:13] Yeah, so the idea behind it, it was set up by a guy called Jack Graham, who had this insight that a lot of young people would be finishing university, going into the world of work, but before doing that, they would do a gap year. And usually they go off to a far flung place in the world which is dealing with a lot of issues and would give up their time to build a school, build a well, those kinds of things. And, he thought, well actually, in the UK, there are still a lot of challenges, we’ve not nailed this. So, how and why are we not channeling that energy to expose people to these very real challenges which are on our doorstep and try and build that empathy and also innovate to create solutions to alleviate some of those challenges.

So it’s a, it’s a great program. It’s, for me, quite transformational. as well.

Mich Bondesio:

[00:23:06] Fantastic. Thank you. And I’ll share a link to that in the show notes along with the other things we’ve spoken about so far.All right, let’s dive a little bit more into the notion of sustainable business and your role with B Corp.

Now sustainable business can mean different things for different people. And a term linked to sustainable business that I reference often as part of my work is the idea of the triple bottom line of people, planet and profit and how they’re interlinked. Another term for this is ESG or environmental, social and governance principles of business.

There’s a lot of focus on the environmental challenges that businesses need to address. And I’m not denying that this is obviously a critical component in our fight to save the planet and to future proof our businesses, but it’s not a standalone factor.

So from your perspective, working with B Corp, why do you think this idea of the triple bottom line is so important for businesses, particularly in our current social and economic landscape?

Kyle Soo:

[00:23:59] So yeah, there’s, there’s so many different terms, acronyms in this space, it’s, it’s, can be quite overwhelming, and so to throw another one out there, uh, the mission statement for the B Corp movement is trying to push economic system to one that is regenerative, inclusive, and equitable.

And I think for me, that word regenerative is the word that I, I link to. particularly, because I think contained within it, which is sort of part of this deeper exploration I’m going on personally, is just these different questions about how we are with each other, ourselves and with the world at large.

And this idea of, I suppose, being inspired by the cycles of nature, and how living systems operate, as well in this space. And I think, in some of the discourse around this, which I think is fundamental, is beginning to reconcile that the world ‘as is’ has built in a particular way that’s brought tremendous benefits in terms of health, technology, but have come at a cost, and reconciling those particular costs, particularly for people and the planet and the voiceless within that space.

Mich Bondesio:

[00:25:10] Yeah.

Kyle Soo:

[00:25:10] And so, for me, the kind of the counter to a lot of the world as is, is built on colonial extractive practices to kind of burn through the energy to kind of sustain this existence as is. And I think we don’t necessarily take into account the externalities and the cost of those. And I think for me, part of this work is reconciling that and trying to figure out how we can better live without necessarily being as extractive as we are. Because if we keep going through this cycle, which is continuing to consume, consume, consume, it just, it just doesn’t work. And we’re, kind of on a road to collapse and I think that that’s for me is the the existential point which I’m grappling with, again as a personal level, as a being, as a citizen within this space. But also how we encourage those changes particularly when we are trapped in a very real context and multiple stories about how to be.

And I think that’s, that for me is, is a important part of the exploration is, going back to my original kind of point is, we know a lot of our behaviours lead to these particular problems, but we still do it anyway. And I think I’ve summarised this into kind of this year’s question, which is why don’t we practice what we preach?

And I think examining it at sort of the multiple levels, like I know I should be going to the gym, or I should have more of these practices, but I still don’t. And so, you know, at an individual level, if you find it really hard, how we expect to do that within our relationships, with our organisations, teams, and at a societal level as well.

And I kind of feel when you start to add in these extra things, we are an ourselves complex living beings with, you know, multiple living things within ourselves and I’ve gut. You know, we’re a multitude of living things working in concert and coherence. But when we start to magnify that outwards in terms of the, the nested systems, which we’re operating in, it just becomes so overwhelming.

So , it’s unsurprising that it’s so hard and so intractable. But change does happen. And so, I think, trying to find those kind of points of opportunity to change the gradient, to make things, that are better, more desirable to happen, and dampen and constrain and stop what is, is quite debilitating behaviours is kind of part of the work I’m trying to explore in kind of the complexity space as well.

Mich Bondesio:

[00:27:36] Very interesting. I appreciate your answer because it touches on so many of the different elements that influence why we do or don’t make change, from values, to being in our comfort zone to very often we don’t make change, until the pain of staying where we are is worse than the pain of making that change.

But there are actually other ways that we can make change that are more pleasurable. And finding ways to kind of connect those things, so that it doesn’t feel like it has, has to be such a hard thing to do. Thank you.

Kyle Soo:

[00:28:05] Yeah, I, I find in my response, I’ve kind of zoomed up to this kind of theoretical guarding thing. And I think for me, one of the challenges in this space is I have the privilege of being able to think about this and have these conversations, but, but really when it sort of translates down to the business, again, we’re trapped in a context where if we stop to pause and think, we lose money, we lose time.

And so there’s a very real existence for business owners, for workers, where we just can’t think about and contemplate these particular things, because we’re considering like, where’s the next meal coming from? When’s the next pay check? How are we going to make these payments? How are we going to make sure that our kids and relatives are kept alive, frankly? And I think that’s the challenge with these things because we’re kind of on this hamster wheel moving ever ever faster, and we can’t afford to stop. But if we keep going like this, then everything will fall apart.

So that that for me is the intractability of this thing It’s like how do we translate some of these deeper questions to to the everyday and sort of expose people to opportunities, to different ways of being. And I think that’s where the B Corp movement is an interesting one in terms of the mission of the organisation, of the movement, of what we’re trying to demonstrate to business leaders, to employees and other stakeholders, is there is a better way of being and doing these things, which you can do.

It’s going to be hard, but there are easy steps you can make on that journey to, to make, you know, small tweaks and embed the idea of continuous improvement. So over time you can get that, you know, atomic habits standard thing, like 1 percent better each day kind of thing. And then. hopefully that will see that graduated shift over time.

Mich Bondesio:

[00:29:52] Yeah, and there’s lots of different ways, as you say, that you can implement small change that will ultimately have incremental and powerful effects. And that’s something I talk about and do a lot as well as part of my work with Creating Cadence. It is around creating the space, so that we have the time, to think, and create, and do in a different way.

And one of those ways is around kind of flexible working. And that’s another way that where businesses can potentially be more regenerative and sustainable is whether that’s a four day work week or, you know, there’s heaps of different ways you can do this, but this is something that I’m quite fascinated about at the moment.

All right. So we’ve touched on this a little bit, but I have a question around it. This concept of creating cadence is also about finding ways to move forward, to build that momentum, to create more flexible rhythm and flow in all parts of our life and work in a way that creates deeper meaning and can help us sustain over the long haul.

So how does what you do in your role help your clients for B Corp, or through Lego Serious Play, et cetera, to create more momentum in their lives and business in a way that’s more impactful, meaningful, and long lasting.

Kyle Soo:

[00:30:55] Yeah, I think I want to bounce off a point you just made before and also kind of in the reading for this podcast preparation. I found that sort of the difference between balance and cadence really, really resonated for me because I, I found actually, yeah, the, the model I had in my head was sort of trying to sort of like balance, these scales, and it’s actually not serving me very helpful.

So I see cadence sort of appeals to me much more when I’m sort of thinking about rhythmic patterns, the dance of these things, as well, and the fact that each day is going to be different, even within a day, things can be different as well. So I just wanted to sort of say at the outset, I found that very helpful.

And I think the other thing is saying, just bouncing off what you were saying before is, is I think a classic phrase, which I’m going to mangle, which I think is, you know, to go far, you’ve got to slow down or something like that, which is essentially like it feels counterintuitive that you actually, to go, go further and farther you stop.

And I think that there’s practical things we’ve been exploring within our organisation about that. And sort of trying to take our foot off the pedal and sort of get away from that frenetic pace and take that, that space to, to pause, reflect, to question, to learn and get a sense of that direction of travel, which I think is, is really helpful and it’s been useful and interesting to be in an organisation like B Lab UK, which is, I joined probably when I was about less than 15 employees and now it’s up to 40.

So actually going through that growth of an organisation as we sort of start to move from kind of a phase like startup, to scale up, or or mature organisation, how we do that with so many different people. And, so that’s been interesting to see in terms of what process mechanisms we put in place around that.

I think you touched upon the Lego Serious Play side of these things. And I think it is, again, creating those moments of pause and reflection as well. I find sometimes I have to battle with would be clients because they want to do Lego Serious Play, they want to do this fun, novel, interesting thing, but they want to do it in an hour.

They’ve not got time to do any more of this, and I sort of have to insist. I even say like, you know, I bought an extra half an hour, I’m not going to charge you for it, but I want to do a half day for these things. Because, we’re in this frenetic space, and this idea that you can create moments of connection, reflection, and sort of trot it out in an hour. And that’s it kind of feels where we’re veering to silver bullet territory. And so what I try and say when I speak to would be clients with these things is, it’s just managing expectations.

You’re not going to have this, you know, mass epiphany in an organisation and walk away that, you know, you’ve done that. But you’ve done the team building stuff and go back to business as usual. The laboured metaphor I’ve been using is around going to the gym.

[00:33:52] You don’t go to the gym for one 45 minute session, walk out with a six pack. You have to work at it. You’ve got to sustain it as a practice. And I think also it’s moving beyond seeing the six pack as a goal and actually having the goal or the outcome as being healthier. And I think building in that practice and recognising the system change you would need to make.

It’s not just going to the gym, it’s how you eat, how you sleep, etc., which hopefully, over time, starts to see those results obliquely. And so that’s where I want to sort of frame Lego Serious Play is, it’s an important point. It might be a catalyst moment, but it’s not the moment. And for organisations, they need to kind of keep that as a sustained practice over time as well.

So that’s what I would say, it’s taking that moment to pause and reflect, which is critical, and using that as a starting point for, for working better.

I think the other thing I’ll just add into the mix here, which is, is just that, that moment of relating to one another. And I don’t think we do this enough. And I think what’s beautiful about Lego Serious Play… and just as a, as a quick primer for people who don’t know. It’s getting people in teams of around six, max, to have Lego in front of them as well. I will ask them a question, which will be kind of a challenging question, but also one that people can grapple with. So it might be like, what is your superpower?

People will build their answer in Lego in two, three minutes. And then each person around the table has two minutes to share that story. And then at the end people capture it. And I think that ability to build your response activates the sort of the tactility, elements, constructionism in terms of people building with their hands and externalising thought processes.

But the critical moment is our storytelling point. People are given an opportunity democratically to talk about their experiences for a couple of minutes. And I think that’s, that’s a really powerful moment for a lot of people, because oftentimes some people are stifled and can’t speak. And I think that that moment can be quite emotional for, for people actually, as they start to share their stories, emotional for them, but also emotional for people hearing it as well.

And that is, is really powerful for building those essential connections for us, as kind of colleagues, as friends, as well.

Mich Bondesio:

[00:36:09] I agree. It’s a, it’s a revelatory experience. One thing that happened in the group that I was, a part of, one of the gentlemen right up front was so obvious in vociferously stating, I am not creative. I’m not a creative person. He didn’t want be there. The bricks he chose were all grey. And when he started building and then started explaining his thought process behind what he was building, it was absolutely magical to see how he came out of his shell. How he described things in such a fantastic way that we could all relate to. And he left feeling like a different person. It was just incredible.

Kyle Soo:

[00:36:44] Yeah, I love, I love those stories. I feel the saddest sentence I hear from people is “I am not creative”. I was like, what, what has happened in that person’s life that something has happened, which has stripped that creativity, because you never hear a kid say, I’m not creative. And there’s something that just gets battered out of us as we go through.

I don’t know if it’s a combination of education, the workplace, growing up, which just removes that creativity. And it feels like when you look at like these various reports that come out about like what’s the workplace of the future? Creativity is at the top. And so I think a lot of the work that I do as a facilitator is nipping that in the bud, and just saying that everybody has the capacity to be creative. Everything everyone does every single day is creative. You know, a mother trying to look after their kid, and again, dancing around the trials and tribulations of that is creativity in a very real setting.

So I think what probably I suspect is people say, I can’t draw, therefore I’m not creative. And I think it’s just expanding the definition and sort of giving that opportunity, that practice for people to come to that realisation themselves. But I think, yeah, there’s those kinds of stories abound where people come to that epiphany point that they are creative. And I think that’s such a critical, a lovely moment.

Mich Bondesio:

[00:38:02] I agree. It’s great that you get to see that as part of the work you do. All right, Kyle, this brings me to my final question for you.

What words of advice or key lessons would you like to share with my listeners based on your experience of life and work so far?

Kyle Soo:

[00:38:15] My immediate thought is be more vulnerable, I think, kind of as an accompaniment to that point about reflection. What I’ve tried to practice more in this space, in terms of people I work with, is just being a bit more upfront in terms of what’s playing in my mind. And what, what’s the kind of contributing factors in terms of what and how I’m showing up in a particular day.

So I think that, that practice is, is helpful. because I think it just unlocks this ability to forgive oneself, etc. And also, I think just creates much more of a better playing field. In terms of how we relate to each other as well. And I think kind of commensurate with that as well is, it’s just being open to putting your hands up and say like, I’ve not had a good day today, I’ve not shown up in the best way as possible, apologising for that.

And, just trying to be a better citizen, with, with each other as well. So that, that’s something I’ve tried to, to model and practice a bit more and I think hopefully through that you’ll have greater empathy and sort of deeper, more meaningful relationships with each other. I think at the moment I’m quite interested in exploring, so if there’s another course I’ll do it’s around like non-violent communication.

I think from my explorations into that space, I kind of feel the process of describing something objectively and how it makes you feel is very helpful as a mechanism to practice myself, in terms of how I relate to other people, but also when I observe these things. And we live in a world and particularly in our movement where we can see things that we don’t necessarily agree with.

And, I don’t think, as a muscle, we exercise enough that ability to have discourse with each other when we don’t agree. And I think that these kind of mechanisms, these tricks, these lessons about how to step away from the immediate emotional side of these things and see that somebody has a viewpoint, you might not disagree with it, but they’ve got their valid opinion and they’ll navigate that kind of conversation, is essential as a counter to a lot of the polarising debates that we’re seeing.

And I feel that’s a practice I want to develop a bit more, and I would urge other people to if I may to kind of consider that themselves and where they feel they show up in these different interactions and just recognise that there’s probably ways that we could all be better as we speak to each other.

Mich Bondesio:

[00:40:48] Work in progress. I like what you’ve suggested there. Thank you. All right, Kyle, thanks for that.

Where can people find you online and do you have anything interesting coming up?

Kyle Soo:

[00:40:58] Well, I live on LinkedIn so I think you know connect to me on there. I occasionally, as you’ll have seen, I write week notes where I sort of try and dump my thoughts externally and publicly. And I feel, again, that’s that practice of being vulnerable, asking questions, asking for help is really, really powerful to untangle the messiness of my mind. But also, I think it’s trying to create those points of resonance for other people, so that’s where I’m showing up most at the moment.

I think in terms of what’s kind of on the horizon, we’re in the midst of an exploration at the moment. Me and a couple of other Lego Serious Play facilitators and people working in the impact space, where we’re getting experimental. So the idea of Lego Serious Play is that it’s a powerful tool. We’ve discussed that, and we want to sort of see if it’s got application in other spaces as well.

So a few of us are quite interested in three horizons modelling and sort of exploring how we can sort of see, or get a sense of what’s emerging, which might become sort of future trends, in terms of, better ways of being, what’s already in existence at the moment and what kind of elements of the existing system might be dying off.

And, exploring three horizons using player-based methods is something of an experiment, which is quite exciting for us to see. So, hopefully at some point we’ll report back on our findings, but it seems like other people are willing to join us on this journey. So, we’ve got a workshop coming up soon with that.

Mich Bondesio:

[00:42:25] Oh, fantastic, that sounds very exciting and I wish you well with it. Kyle, it’s been an absolute pleasure chatting with you. Thank you so much for being on the show.

Kyle Soo:

[00:42:33]Thank you.

Conclusion

Mich Bondesio:

[00:42:34] I really enjoyed listening to Kyle’s thoughts on the role we can play in incrementally creating systemic change, both as individuals and collectively in our communities and in business.

One quote in particular that stuck with me is this description Kyle used to explain the example of how the bacteria in our gut work together to support our health and wellbeing. He said, “We are a multitude of living beings working in concert and coherence.”

I often talk on the Creating Cadence podcast about how, in our minds, we think we’re separate from our external worlds, and what I mean in this case is the natural environment.

In some cases, we think we are above it, or in control of it, but we are an integrated part or element of these natural ecosystems. Our actions and decisions impact them. And their degradation impacts on us.

So if the elements of our internal world can work in concert and coherence to help us function properly and stay healthy, why can’t we help our external environment to do the same?

So thanks for listening. In the next episode, I’ll be talking to Rashmir Balasubramaniam, who is a leadership, team, and strategy coach and advisor who works with founders, philanthropists, and change makers.