Ep. 80 – Deborah Smith – Planning for Presence

Interview with Deborah Smith

[00:06:24] Mich Bondesio:

Hi Deborah. Welcome to the Creating Cadence podcast. It’s lovely to have you on the show.

[00:06:28] Deborah Smith: Thanks for having me.

[00:06:29] Mich Bondesio:

So a bit of context. I was first introduced to you by a mutual friend, Catarina King, who is the co-founder of SocietyOne Coworking space in Preston . Then I heard you speak about your experience with mental health challenges as part of an Inspired Wellbeing Talk event hosted by an organisation called It’s Mental, and shortly after that you were also on a panel for a Preston Partnership event, which was talking about ways of working in the city, and so discovering that we have some connections and interests in common, we’ve had a few conversations about these things since, and we will talk about these aspects of mental health and flexible working and so forth more in a little bit.

But first, I wanted to start with you and your current context. So tell us more about you. Where do you find yourself in your work and life at the moment?

[00:07:10] Deborah Smith:

In a good place, which is a great thing after you know, setting up a business and having children and. Yeah, I’ve come to a time in my life where I am in a great place. So, yeah, I’m co-owner of a town planning consultancy based in Preston, and we’ve been in that partnership now for 10 years. This is our 10 year anniversary year.

[00:07:29] Mich Bondesio: Congratulations.

[00:07:30] Deborah Smith:

Thank you very much. And then prior to that I was a solo planning consultant. And then prior to that I was in a national planning practice, and I’ve worked in a local authority and I’ve worked for a small practice. So I’ve worked in various different planning roles in different businesses, which has all been great experience.

But yeah, this time in my life, it’s good. I’m married with two children, one’s 15, one’s 18, one’s just gone to university, so…

[00:07:55] Mich Bondesio: Wow, big changes.

[00:07:56] Deborah Smith:

Big changes. Yeah. So I feel like I’ve got a bit of my old self back in a way. The bit that you lose, I think, in motherhood. So, yeah. It’s, it’s exciting.

[00:08:05] Mich Bondesio:

It’s exciting ’cause you’re freeing up time to explore yourself again

[00:08:08] Deborah Smith: Yeah. Yeah. Really enjoyable.

[00:08:10] Mich Bondesio:

That’s excellent. So a key theme of the podcast is around intentional productivity and the foundational self-care practices that we engage in to support ourselves better, so we can show up better in life and work.

What regular habits, routines, or activities do you engage in to help you manage your stress and be more productive so you can show up and be resilient over the long haul? And are there any challenges that you experience in that regard?

[00:08:34] Deborah Smith:

Mm. So that, that’s been the journey of the past 15 years really to get to this great place. I feel that I’m in right now. And it’s required a lot of practice. It’s been a very up and down journey but I recognise the, the importance of self-care, that it’s an essential component of us as human beings.

If you are gonna lead a sustainable life. And it’s taken effort and it’s taken practice, it’s taken a lot of reading and it’s taken a lot of practice, intentional practice. So some of the things that I do on a, a regular basis include meditation.

[00:09:12] Mich Bondesio: Mm-hmm.

[00:09:12] Deborah Smith:

I, I read a lot, I do a lot of micro learning, let’s say.

And that really has been to develop a heightened sense of self-awareness. That was the intention, that was the plan. And what I mean by that is really just knowing who you are and who you show up as the things that trigger you. So, and some of that has been painful. Some of that has been really painful learning, you know, as you reveal your shadow self to yourself and learn of, learn about the aspects of your ego, maybe that you weren’t aware of initially, that you were totally switched off to.

Some of that can be quite painful, but it’s been a tough journey at times. But now I think I can see the reward in that because I’m very conscious now of the things that trigger me. And when you become conscious of them, actually there are far fewer things that trigger you, that that was the aim.

And you’re just better able to relate to people. So, that reading, learning, practicing, that’s been a, a conscious effort really for a 15 year period now.

But it really picked up from 2018. I had a bit of a bad patch in 2018 when the children were very small. The business took off. Outwardly it looked very successful, but inside I was absolutely crushed. You know, it was, it was so hard doing, you know, running a business that looked successful. Yet children were small and, you know, one’s at school and one’s at nursery, and I just found it incredibly hard. So I had to develop these practices, you know, that’s when I moved into yoga.

That’s where I started. Then I moved into meditation, then I moved into a lot of reading. But now, but now on a daily basis, the things that I do now to maintain all of that learning from, you know, maintenance purposes are things like, because I’ve developed a heightened sense of self-awareness. I know when I need a break and I will take that break.

[00:10:59] Mich Bondesio: Mm-hmm.

[00:11:00] Deborah Smith:

I know the break will do me good for the rest of the day, or the break will do me good for the rest of the week. It’s not always easy, you know, you, you’ve just got demands on your time like anybody else. You know, lack of time is something that we all seem to say that we have, you know, but I think sometimes it’s how you choose to spend your time and what to do to spend your time on, you know?

So, taking breaks. Even taking solo breaks is something that I’ve done in the past few years, going off on a trip. I just did it for 24 hours to a hotel in the Lake District a few years ago, and that really did me some good. You know, if, if people at work want a piece of you, if your clients want a piece of you, if your children want a piece of you, your husband wants a piece of you to go away and just do absolutely anything that you want on your schedule was great, you know? So I tested that and did 24 hours and that was great. That worked.

So I followed up with a trip, a longer trip to Dublin last year. I think I went, sorry, I need one in the diary for this year. So it’s no, yeah. Knowing when, knowing when to take the breaks I got back into exercise in a bigger way at the end of last year and I’ve picked it up again, taking it to another level in the past, well, in the past few weeks really, and again, I’ve noticed that has had a big impact on my energy levels, giving me more energy.

So that has been a real positive ’cause that’s something that I used to do a lot pre-children. So I think doing things that you enjoy that are not work, bring more energy to work. I think a lot of people focus on work as the be all and end all. You know, they say, oh, I don’t like work and fed up with work, dah, dah, dah.

And they expect work to give them everything that they need in their lives. Yeah, sure. We spend a lot of time at work, but I think sometimes if you have a problem at work, go and look somewhere else. Go and take up a new hobby. Go and exercise, go and walk in nature, do breath work, meditate, yoga, whatever you need to do for you, you know, or whatever creates some joy.

Don’t place all the emphasis on work. And I don’t say that just as an employer. I’m not saying that I’m saying that from experience.

[00:12:57] Mich Bondesio:

Those are all really sage points that you’ve mentioned. You know, first of all, the self-awareness piece, it’s so important in order for us to understand how to care for ourselves best, we have to know ourselves truly. And not all self-care practices work for everybody. So that’s part of getting to know yourself is helping to understand which practices work best.

I love the idea of creating space in your life to go away and that doesn’t just create space. It also puts you in a different environment, and very often we see our challenges and problems in a completely different way when we remove ourselves from the situation we find ourselves in.

So both of those are super powerful and yeah, we are, we often place so much strength in our identity in relation to work, but we are so much more than that. And I talk about that quite often on the podcast about how everything we do outside of work informs how we show up in the workplace. And so important to realise that.

And very often when work isn’t going well, if our identity is tied solely to that, it really affects our health and wellbeing. So it is about understanding, you know, how to build a more well-rounded, meaningful life that will positively influence your work. So thank you for raising those points.

Talking about the mental health element, you are also an ambassador for Its Mental and related to this, they’ve recently launched a Stay Well Preston initiative, which I’m very excited about. Why did you choose to align with It’s Mental specifically and, you know, why is it important to you to do this work?

[00:14:24] Deborah Smith:

Yeah, I think essentially people are important and I don’t, on a personal level, I don’t like to see the struggle that people have. It’s very hard, isn’t it, to get into somebody’s head that’s struggling, you know? And it’s can be sad to, to see that, you know, and I think I’ve, I went through a bad spell when I was about 25, when I was in a job where I was really stressed and my life was very, very average, very, very ordinary, and I’d got into this job and it was my first job in the private sector. And it just hit me like a train. I don’t know what happened.

I don’t really know what happened and why it’s stressed me out so much at the time. I do now, because of reflection, I know myself a bit more, but the time it absolutely floored me.

And it was after that, that job. And during that job, ’cause I read my way out of a stressful period. I started to get into reading about the mind, you know. Well I thought, ’cause I needed to know more about it ’cause I thought it’s hit me and I dunno why it’s hit me. And what is this all about?

So a friend just going back around to It’s Mental, a friend of mine knows the the person who set up Its Mental, the owner of It’s Mental, and she thought that we should meet. So that’s initially how we got introduced, because she knew I was into anything that’s related to mental health and wellbeing.

So we met and I love what they do there at it’s mental, it’s great. And I think the stay well strategy that they’ve introduced is really good as well, you mentioned that. You know, there’s a stigma around mental health still, and if you can just change the perspective on that and say, actually this is about staying well, this is about Mind Gym. This is about preventing the needs to go and get medication or end up in the NHS system or whatever.

This is the, the small things that you need in your toolkit to keep you steady and balanced, you know, and, and so, you know, I’m an advocate of mental health and wellbeing and they, they’re just doing all the right things. Inspirational wellbeing talks, events they hold and get great people together, which you’ve been to, you know, it’s great. It’s really good.

[00:16:24] Mich Bondesio:

Yeah, I think that’s the right thing, if we can hear people’s personal stories about how they’ve overcome their challenges, it’s incredibly inspiring attending those sessions. You know, and it, it puts your own problems into context really, and you realise that no matter how hard it is, you, you can find a way to overcome.

[00:16:39] Deborah Smith:

Exactly. And if you can take a snippet from something else that somebody else did, that’s great. Just that feeling. I mean, I’ve noticed it recently. I’m involved with the Forum for the Built Environment and we did a Women in Construction event, so there’s five women on a panel talking about their journey and how, what it’s like to be a woman in property and development.

And some are on construction sites, you know, and having to deal with men who’s got certain perception about their role. And even though they’ve got very senior roles, some of these women and the power of inspiration, you know, to be on the receiving end and, and to watch incredible people, you know, it really filled the room.

I mean, I was like, I was high for about three days after the event and everybody else felt it in the room as well, you know, and so, yeah, so to do, for its mental, to do inspired wellbeing talks is powerful stuff.

[00:17:26] Mich Bondesio:

Mm-hmm. Indeed. Yeah. And we’ll share links to that organisation in the show notes as well if people want to learn a bit more.

So the podcast is called Creating Cadence for a reason, then it’s all about how we create a better rhythm, pace or flow in our own lives and our work days, and also with our clients and our customers.

And one way that you are doing this is in adjusting your working style and the pace of your working practices. So I’m keen to explore this part first.

When the second pilot of the UK Four Day Workweek campaign was rolling out last year, that’s 2024, your company decided to experiment informally with trialing that format.

What made you decide to do it and what has the impact been in terms of your experience with your team and your business and your clients?

[00:18:07] Deborah Smith:

Yeah. So it’s, it’s something that me and my business partner had talked about for us initially. Wouldn’t it be great if we do four days a week? Great. Well, you’ve got that privilege if you are in a business, you could organise it. You know, we could organise it so we could just do that. But there was this real sense of… we operate a very flat structure at work.

It’s not a hierarchy. And for me, there was a real sense of not leaving anybody behind. It just didn’t feel right for us not to all do it, because we’re only a small team, you know? I feel like we’re all in it together really. So, yeah, and I’d followed the first trial.

There’s a landscape practice in Manchester that I’d followed. I’d followed their journey throughout the first trial. And I bought a book on it and I used to follow it in the press and see articles and things. So I’d I was already interested because I think the balance between work and home isn’t right.

I think we place, like you say, even status, we place a lot of our time and attention on work and the balance just doesn’t feel right.

[00:19:01] Mich Bondesio: Mm-hmm.

[00:19:03] Deborah Smith:

And I thought, I wonder if we could do four days a week and we could maintain our productivity and could we make it work? So I thought, right, well, let’s go for a trial.

So ahead of the second UK trial, we’d put things in place already to, to get started. And I don’t think you are ever gonna be ready fully. You just need to go and have a go. So we were just like, okay, we’re gonna have a go at this and see how it goes. But as soon as we started talking to the team about it, there was already a sense of like.

You know, will, and yes, we can make this work. And already, you know, what can I do for you? And do you need any help on that? And, you know, it, it just created this real team spirit that was really surprised me before we’d even started.

So, yeah, productivity increased. There were a few things that we needed to do, like, you know, if someone’s doing deep work, deep focus work we’ll take messages for them. We know sometimes work might spill into the Friday, but we don’t on a rotor where there is cover on a Friday in the office. So yeah, we take, the way we do it is we will do , three Fridays off and work one Friday.

And, you know, and I run a business. And my business partner also runs a business, so I’ll be honest. It doesn’t always work for us, but there is flexibility there for us, you know which, which is absolutely fine. And we’ve decided to carry on with it and do just on a six month rolling basis.

So we we’re now in our second six months.

[00:20:23] Mich Bondesio:

Fantastic. And how have your clients responded? Did you communicate to them that you were doing this while you were experimenting?

[00:20:28] Deborah Smith:

No, I didn’t feel like we needed to ’cause we, what I wanted to do was see whether or not they’d even noticed. And I haven’t, and I haven’t. I mean, if you run a small business, you know, if someone rings me on a Friday, I’ll answer the phone. You know, if it’s a certain client where I know we’re in, we’re in the thick of a project with them and they need.

If they need me, then I’m not, not answering the phone, you know?

So yeah, commitment to client care is, is really important. So yeah, if somebody wants to meet on a Friday and sometimes, you know, quite often they do wanna meet on a Friday morning, then yeah, fine. You know, I’m not saying no. ’cause that’s the choice I’ve made, you know, and that’s the choice. So.

[00:21:09] Mich Bondesio:

Yeah. And in terms of wellbeing and so forth, how has that been influenced by implementing the trial for you personally and also for the team?

[00:21:18] Deborah Smith:

Well, it’s, I think for everybody, it’s just created some headspace. I mean, straight away everybody was getting gym memberships. And so I was like, well, that’s a great outcome. Yeah. Because that’s exactly what, you know, if we all did it, that’s the outcome that you want. You want people to be healthier and be less of a burden on the NHS.

You know that you want a healthy, longer life, so we know that sitting at a desk for long periods is not great.

And there’s all sorts , you want to spend time with family and friends, the person that you chose to marry, for example, or your parents, if you need to spend more time with them, if you know, if they’re in that stage of your, your life, or seeing more of your kids, ’cause that’s really important. You know, being a parent and being around your children as as much as you can is important for their development, in my view.

[00:22:04] Mich Bondesio:

A hundred percent, and particularly from a woman’s perspective, for a woman who has young children, especially. Very often our work environments are too inflexible to accommodate childcare and work. So very often it’s the mums who end up sacrificing their work so that they stay home to look after their kids because of that inflexibility.

[00:22:23] Deborah Smith:

Yeah, I set up a business and work for myself, because I was in a national planning practice thinking, I don’t know if I could actually have these two children and make this work, this big, big job. What I describe as a big job that takes lots of time, you know, where you are given a lot of attention and brain space to it.

Now it turns out that setting, not my own business was even harder than that for a period. But yeah, it’s got a little bit easier, more recently. But yeah, for three years it was it was the hardest thing I’ve ever done for three years. But that was part of my journey.

[00:22:53] Mich Bondesio:

Yeah, well I think running a business is hard period. And you know when you are juggling parenthood and lots of other things as well, and I agree that it doesn’t mean that you’re working less hours. It just gives you the choice in terms of when you might work those hours, so that you can potentially fit them around the things that are important.

[00:23:09] Deborah Smith: Yeah, I needed, you know, more flexiblity.

[00:23:13] Mich Bondesio:

Yeah, a hundred percent. Alright, let’s look at this question of creating cadence from the perspective of the services that you provide. Your company supports clients in a very diverse variety of sectors, from private clients and landowners to corporates, developers, and even educational institutions, and you deal with all facets of the planning process too.

So at its essence, how does what you do help your clients to build or maintain momentum in their lives or business?

[00:23:39] Deborah Smith:

We, we develop very personal relationships with our clients and getting to know our clients is very important to us. Um, planning doesn’t always go to plan.

It involves a lot of money for our clients. And I think recognising that the amount of time and financial and emotional investment that clients put into their projects, you know, that means a lot to us.

You know, we have to recognise that and we have to respect that. So when things go wrong and , you know, maybe a local authority is not issuing a planning decision notice as quickly as, as our client would want them to, and they’ve got a loan that is being paid on a weekly basis, it’s important.

And they can get mad about that. They can get really frustrated. So we, we have to acknowledge that. And I think the ability to, I think if you’ve got a heightened sense of self-awareness, and through meditation practice for, for me as well, you can recognise what is essentially what is your own stuff and what is somebody else’s stuff. So sometimes, there are times where we’ve really had to calm clients down. But this is, this is hard and this, this is about knowing a client, because how I deal with each client is very different. It depends on how they are and how they react. You know, you have to know them to know what’s the best way, you know, and it goes beyond knowing, oh, this client likes to operate by email and this client likes a telephone call.

And, it’s so much more than that. You know, it’s knowing that. If there’s a problem that you are gonna share the problem with them. You are gonna do what you can, ’cause you know, it’s important for them.

So it doesn’t matter the scale of the project, it doesn’t matter if that’s somebody who wants one house or if that’s somebody who wants 150 houses, because it’s important to them, it’s important to us, to make sure that we remove as many problems as we can. You know, never go to a client with a problem, always go with a solution or, or some options, you know?

[00:25:30] Mich Bondesio:

Yeah. There’s always another way. And being able to help them figure out what that is and, you know, nurture those relationships and reduce any friction, that’s a very important role that you play in facilitating between the, the people issuing the planning or approving the planning and the people requesting it. Especially as you say, when things like money are involved, you know? Yeah. Large amounts of money. Yeah. Interesting. Thank you so much.

Alright, so we’re coming to the final question, and this is all about the wisdom that you can share with my listeners. Based on your experience of life and work so far, do you have any words of advice or some key takeaways that you want to share?

[00:26:09] Deborah Smith:

Self-awareness, definitely. I’ve said it already, I’ve said it a hundred times. If you are, if you’re struggling in life, then go and read. Go and watch things on YouTube. Go on some courses, whatever it takes. Get to know who you are. Do a values exercise. You can buy cards on Amazon, a box of values cards. Values is really important.

Um, but for me, I think one of my, one of mine was very goal focused, very destination focused, and I think we get taught this in education where you go from GCSEs to a levels degree, first job. And then I was on this path of. What’s next? What’s next? Is it marriage? And then it’s another promotion and then it’s children and dah, dah.

And then I got to the point where I set up the business. I have the children and everything seems to implode. And I had to unlearn this destination-focused way of living, because I think I was potentially missing opportunities.

And you’re very much in control and not in flow. If you are what I felt, you know, was on a train, on a train to the next destination, great. Got this one in the bag, right? What next?

You know, I think there are opportunities missed in life if you become so fixated on a goal. And I was very good at that. I was very good at being goal focused. You can miss things. Yeah, you can miss things in life. And I think what I missed was being grateful for the present moment. I think that’s what I, I missed in life by operating in that way.

So I think to be grateful for where you are, what you’ve got, not just, not, not materially, but um, you know, the people that are surround you and what they bring. Even though some may be flawed in the same way that I am flawed, you know, to be grateful for the people that are around you. Just to develop a different way. You know, the destination way didn’t really work for me. To be curious and grateful seemed to be a better way to, to operate, and it seems to be working ’cause I feel great right now.

[00:28:04] Mich Bondesio: Excellent.

[00:28:05] Deborah Smith: So those are my words of wisdom.

[00:28:08] Mich Bondesio:

Well, I think they’re great and I think that they’re more powerful than you realise, because you’re bringing in that importance of the self-awareness again. You know, understanding what your values are, what’s important to you, and how you connect that to how you see the world, what you do in the world, and not being too future focused, that you miss out on everything that’s happening in your now.

And very often the things that actually bring us the most joy are the small things that we might think are unimportant, but they’re, they’re special and relevant. And you don’t realise that they’re important until you obviously are, become more self-aware. So there’s a very important piece there that threads throughout this conversation we’ve had today.

So I really appreciate you sharing that. Thank you.

Alright, so thanks so much for today. Where can people find you online?

[00:28:50] Deborah Smith: They can find us online at SL-planning.co.uk.

[00:28:56] Mich Bondesio:

Okay, great. I’ll share those links in the show notes along with the Its Mental and Stay Well Preston initiative.

Debbie, thanks so much for your time today. I’ve enjoyed chatting.

[00:29:04] Deborah Smith: Thank you very much.

[00:29:04] Mich Bondesio:

There’s so much about this conversation that I found helpful and thought provoking. Particularly the ideas around focusing on the now instead of being so goal-driven in the way that we plan out our careers. And also this idea of developing a more heightened self-awareness, because when we know ourselves, we’re better able to align our goals, our dreams, and our needs all together.

This conversation is a valuable reminder to be curious, stay present, and find rhythms that work for you, not just for the status quo.

So thanks for listening. I’ll be back in a few weeks with the next episode, which is an interview with Mollie Hughes of Softly Solutions.

Until then, keep moving forwards with courage, curiosity, and cadence.