Ep. 41 – Creativity & AI – Joanna Penn

Why is it important for us to consider bias, inclusivity, and ethics when it comes to designing and using AI assisted tools?

In this episode, we are talking about curiosity, commitment, and creative responsibility in the web 3 world.

Hi, and welcome to Creating Cadence, a podcast for life and work in motion.

I’m your host, Mich Bondesio, a writer, coach, consultant, and solo entrepreneur.

It’s my aim to help high achievers stuck on the treadmill of hustle culture to transform how they approach life, work, and business. To activate more of their potential and perform better in every part of their life. At a cadence that’s more suitable to them, despite this fast-paced world we live in.

This is episode 41, the sixth and final episode of season 7, published in November, 2022.

For this season, I’m considering web 3 and Emerging Technologies, and there are implications for our near future. I’ve been interviewing people, working in tech, digital, and creative spheres about how we can use these tools to help us transition in both our work and wellbeing.

So let’s recap what we’ve covered this season.

• I first looked at some of the current technology trends and introduced you briefly to my guests for season 7. The first interview was with Caitlin Krause, the Chief Wellness Officer of Tripp, and we spoke about the mindful metaverse.
• I also chatted with Jerod Morris, Chief Community Officer of Movement Ventures about the power of web 3 communities.
• Then I spoke to two of the founders of Sairo, a metaverse design company, about business opportunities for brands in the metaverse.
• The last episode was a conversation with Robert Riggs, the creator of the True Crime Reporter podcast. Robert and I spoke about the skills we’ve developed to thrive in web two environments, which will now stand us in good stead as we venture into web 3.

Today’s finale episode is an interview with Joanna Penn.

Joanna is an award-winning podcaster, prolific author, creative entrepreneur, and international professional speaker.

She writes non-fiction, business related books for authors, and she is also an award-nominated New York Times and USA Today bestselling thriller author, writing under the pseudonym JF Penn.

Joanna also happens to be a futurist, and as you’ll hear in this episode, she has a long history of being an early adopter of new technologies.

(Find out more about Joanna and her work more at thecreativepenn.com).

The focus of our conversation is on AI and creativity.

Joanna talks about the importance of staying curious and being willing to step up and play a responsible role in how things develop, as we become more immersed in this fast evolving environment.

She also shares really useful AI-assisted tools for creators.

As I’m a creator myself, I found Joanna’s thoughts and suggestions incredibly relevant and helpful. But it really doesn’t matter what you do. I’m sure you’ll benefit from this topical conversation too.

Before we hear from Joanna, just a reminder that in the spirit of embracing new and emerging technology this episode has been recorded and edited with the help of software tools such as RodeConnect,Zencastr, Headliner, Auphonic and Descript, or Descript, depending on how you prefer to pronounce it. All of these tools, employ AI-powered technology as part of their functionality.

As always, the resources mentioned in this episode are listed in the show notes at creatingcadence.co. On the website, you can also sign up to the fortnightly Cadence Newsletter, which is a free bi-monthly accompaniment to the podcast, where I share more resources.

So if you are ready, let’s dive in.

So welcome, Joanna. Thanks for coming on the show. I cannot tell you how excited I am to be having this conversation with you.

Joanna Penn:

[00:04:00] Oh, well thanks for having me, Mich. I’m excited to be here.

Mich Bondesio:

[00:04:05]  Cool. So for a bit of context, you are based in the UK like me, but we had to go all the way to America to actually meet. I was really fortunate to get to hang out with you at the Creator Economy Expo in May of this year.

And I’ve been following your work for years though, and I do that because you are extremely good at what you do. And you know the proof of your success is in the fact that you have sold more than 1 million books that have been read across 172 countries. And you have more than 7 million podcast downloads in 288 countries, since you started writing, which is exceptional.

And you’ve helped countless people on their own writing journeys, in part because I think you’re so generous in the way that you share your own learning, and you have a real infectious enthusiasm about the way that you do that.

And I think you’ve always also been a very forward thinker and an early adopter of new approaches and technologies, and that’s particularly relevant for the topics that we’re gonna be covering today.

But for many of my listeners, it’s the first time that they’re meeting you. So I’d like to start there first.

Can you tell us a bit more about you?

How did you come to be an author and podcaster, and what are the genres and topics of your books and podcasts?

Joanna Penn:

[00:05:16] Yeah, sure. Well, uh, first of all, I started writing ages ago, so it feels, some of these numbers seem big, but I have been doing this for 15 years now. So I did actually start writing in 2006, but before that I was an IT consultant.

So I used to implement accounts payable systems into large corporates and small to medium enterprises, SMEs. So I come from the corporate world, um, although I do have a degree in theology, so, um, (Mich: interesting) in religion. Yeah, exactly. My interest in religion comes through in my fiction.

“So, in sort of 2006, like many people, you know, I hit that stage. I was like, oh my goodness, what am I doing with my life?”

I, yeah, I’m paid really good money, but I hate my job. I’m miserable.

So I started researching how I could change my job and I started, I thought I, I would write a book cuz that’s what you know, why not? And so the first book I wrote ended up as a book called Career Change.

But in writing that book and publishing that book, because I self-published before the Kindle, before e-books, digital went mainstream and I learned about how to self-publish.

And I was a speaker. I still am a speaker, but, uh, I got involved with the speaking community and a lot of them self-published and kind of sold at the back of the room.

“So I was like, okay, I’m gonna do this.”

So I started writing non-fiction. I kept my job, um, took five years, so I left my job in 2011. And in those five years I built up thecreativepenn.com. Penn with a double ‘n’. And started podcasting in 2009. So I was super, super early with podcasting and uh, also started writing fiction.

So by the time I left my job, I had, you know, the podcast, I had courses and I had fiction and non-fiction books. Um, so I write thrillers, dark Fantasy, and Crime under JF Penn. And I write non-fiction for authors under Joanna Pen and I have two podcasts, The Creative Penn Podcast, and Books & Travel Podcast, which kind of underpins my fiction.

So at the moment I call myself an author and a podcaster, but across that I do lots of things, but as I said, I also have courses and my podcast makes me money as well as marketing.

And so I have multiple streams of income and that’s the approach that I’ve always had since the beginning.

“I’m also, I guess, what you call a multi-passionate creative. I just can’t seem to do one thing.”

Mich Bondesio:

[00:07:32] I was gonna say, I can relate.

Joanna Penn:

[00:07:34] Exactly. And I feel like there are, there are two kinds of people, you know, you either focus and you, you’ve read that book, you know ‘The One Thing’ by Gary, Gary Keller, I think it is. (Mm-hmm). And everyone’s like, yes, I’m gonna do the one thing.

And then there are lots of us who, that’s just not who we are. And if that’s what we were forced to do, I mean, I guess that’s what I had to do in my, my first job. I just had to implement accounts payable over and over and over again, and it just. You know, you talk about burnout, I, I was burned out from that job even though I was paid very well.

So, I guess I’ve built up this sort of creative portfolio career since starting writing in 2006, and yeah, I mean, yes, I’ve been full time since 2011 and making more money than my old day job since 2015.

Mich Bondesio:

[00:08:18] Fantastic. Well, congratulations. And I have to say a big thank you actually at this point because you’ve been inspirational in my own journey towards starting an author business, which I’m hoping to do early next year.

So the theme of this season of the Creating Cadence Podcast is all about emerging technologies and how creators are using these tools to support them in business and with their wellbeing and creativity.

So I’m interested to know, when did you first get interested in this stuff?

What was the catalyst for you to first start learning about and experimenting with web 3 and related technologies?

Joanna Penn:

[00:08:50] Well, I think, you know, forget anything that’s new now. I think I was very early, so I started self-publishing before it became trendy.

In fact, when I was self-publishing, in those early days, we were sort of considered the pariahs. Um, it used to be called Vanity Publishing. It used to be the thing you did because you had no other choice. It wasn’t like a positive business decision. Mm-hmm.

So I saw self-publishing coming and when the, so in the same year, so 2007, both the Kindle and the iPhone were launched and I’ve got some videos on YouTube from sort of 2008 going, this is gonna change our lives… this phone. Like I was like, I can get my ebook on this phone. And it’s so funny because even, you know, realistically that did take a while to change. And things like podcasting, again, I started podcasting in 2009.

“So I feel like I’m usually quite early in adopting things.”

But in terms of like AI specifically, in 2016, I think it was when, Google’s DeepMind, uh, AlphaGo beat Lee Sedol at the game of Go. (Right). And this, this was huge.

This was a huge moment because Lee Sedol was the world champion of the Chinese game of Go, which is considered to have more possible moves than, you know, the stars in the sky. I mean, and it’s an ancient thing. And millions of people watch this game. And Lee Sedol, I’ve watched the interview, and if you watch the clip, his face. He realizes that he’s been beaten by this AI and it, it’s just this kind of devastating moment.

“But what’s so interesting is they said the move, some of the moves were creative. So this word creative was really the first time I’d heard it in context.”

With, um, AI (mm-hmm). before, you know, cuz I, I did come out, I did know programmers. I understood that you program stuff and things happen, but this was very different.

This was deep learning. The machine learned itself. It did it itself. Uh, you just set it a task and it learns. And then what, what then happened with the game of Go was so interesting, because the AI expanded the possibilities for the Go players. And what happens now is there are moves that humans throughout centuries never considered, they are now using because of the AI.

Mich Bondesio:

[00:11:04] Mm, that’s incredible.

Joanna Penn:

[00:11:05] And that, yeah, so it is incredible. So that got me really interested and so on my podcast, so thecreativepenn.com/future I’ve been interviewing people and trying out things as they emerged.

So the next thing that really kind of caught my eye was a company called Open AI who released GPT-2, which was a generative language tool a couple of years ago, and I managed to get early access. And then they subsequently released GPT-3. And now there’s a ton of tools built on GPT-3. They also were the ones who released Dall-E, the AI tool.

“But all of these things just come from me being super curious about how we can use these tools to enhance our creativity.”

And just to be clear, I am not threatened by the AI. I want it to be like, uh, happened with Go, which is: how can these things make us more creative? And you know, as you do, sort of changing the cadence of our lives, use these tools to perform better, to create different things, yeah, to enhance us. I think that’s how I think about it.

Mich Bondesio:

[00:12:11]  I agree. I think that having a curious approach is a much better way than being fearful of these things, being open to the opportunities to be able to leverage them.

So, how are you using things like AI and tokens and so forth, these technologies in your business now?

Because I know that you have, you’ve been experimenting, but actually they’ve become quite embedded in some of the ways that you run your business and the assets that you create.

Joanna Penn:

[00:12:34] Yes. Well, I’m gonna just leave aside, you mentioned tokens, but I, I wanna leave that aside because to me the most exciting thing is the AI side of things, (Okay), which to me is, right now, this is nothing new.

I mean, anyone who is using Google, anyone who’s using, you know, if you’re using Amazon, you know, you are, you are about to release a book, if you use Amazon, (Mm-hmm), if you buy on it, if you sell on it, you’re using AI.

“There’s lots and lots of ways we use AI in our daily life.”

So we are already AI-assisted. If you use GPS mapping, you know. But in terms of being, being a writer, so I publish on Amazon, so I use AI that way. I use Facebook, all the ad platforms now are AI-generated. I personally don’t use TikTok, but TikTok is just an AI machine. I mean, it really is.

But in terms of creatively, so I use, I use a tool called Sudowrite, and that is a GPT-3 powered, fiction tool and I mainly use it, you could consider it sort of an extended thesaurus.

So, if I write, I’ll write a paragraph, and then I might have, um, there might be a wooden shed for example, and I would highlight wooden shed, um, or abandoned wooden shed, and then you highlight it and you click “describe” and it will give you this, uh, sight, taste, smell, touch, metaphors. It will help you describe something and give you ideas.

“So I use it as kind of an idea generation type tool.”

You can use it to just generate text, but I don’t use it for for that reason. Uh, the same type of things like Jarvis (rebranded to Jasper) powers marketing copy so that the tool can help you write ad copy, stuff like that, articles, content marketing, uh, that kind of thing.

So then for editing, I use Pro Writing Aid, which is fantastic and is AI powered. A lot of people would be using Grammarly for their editing. Um, for my blog now, I use Otter.ai for transcripts and I use, I’m using Dall-E and Mid Journey to generate AI art to go with my blog post for my shareable images.

Oh, what else? I use AI narration for some audio books. I’ve used AI translation as well as a human editor for books in German. (Oh, interesting).

Yeah, I mean, I try all kinds of things. I mean, just to sort of slightly touch on NFTs, although again, that’s another whole topic. (Mm-hmm) Uh, back in April, I used AI generated art from the words of my novels plus an ebook of my novel, a special edition as an NFT on OpenSea, to see how that would work.

Um, so essentially I, I kind of use lots of different kinds of AI tools as part of my process, and I think that it’s only going to continue.

“I think the tools are just moving at such a fast rate that if you don’t incorporate some of these tools as part of your process, then you’ll be left behind almost.”

And again, as you talk about. If you want to perform better and you are a high achiever, as as you talk to, then these tools can help us make more of, they’re kind of like a leverage, right?

They’re like a lever to help us make more, hopefully help us sell more.

Yeah, so I’m, I’m pretty excited about it, but I know not everyone is.

Mich Bondesio:

[00:15:57] I agree. I think it’s so interesting the way that you are using it. Some of the tools that you’ve mentioned, I, I am using myself like Pro Writing Aid and Otter.

I listened recently to your interview with Derek Murphy about AI generative art. And it was so fascinating that it’s actually spurred me to decide that I’m gonna experiment with that for my book cover, for my book that’s gonna be published soon. And you know, six months ago I would never even have thought about something like that.

So I agree with you, things are moving really fast, but there are opportunities here potentially to automate, to make things more efficient, to support us, in our process and in our outputs.

So I think it’s an exciting time too.

Joanna Penn:

[00:16:34] Mm-hmm. And, and I do, I think like we were talking about, the attitude has to be curiosity.

And also again, like, let’s circle back to when I said, you know, 2007. How many of us had an iPhone when they first came out? Like, really, how many people? I, I looked at it the year before and kind of went, why would anyone need a smartphone? I’m quite happy with my Nokia . You know, I just text people, why would I need my phone to do anything else?

And if you think about how fast technology moves, uh, even like you and I right now doing this over the internet and we use all these different… like I use, oh, I didn’t even mention, I use Descript.com.

Mich Bondesio:

[00:17:09] Yes, I do too.

Joanna Penn:

[00:17:10] Yeah. For my podcast editing also AI powered. I mean, so many of the tools that we use, they don’t have a big flashing light over them saying this is powered by AI . (Mm-hmm).

But so much of what we do now is, um, has AI as part of it, has, uh, deep learning as part of it. And I think the attitude of playing with things and trying them out, it serves us anyway.

So, you know, you and I, obviously, we’ve both sorted out our own websites, for example, and we’ve done a podcast and you have to learn how to do these things, but once you learn how to do it, then they support your process. (Yes).

“So I think that’s the most important thing, is having this attitude of playing and learning and being open to the possibility that things will change.”

And like those Go players. Um, and even 10 years before that when computer chess became a thing. Suddenly it went from being unacceptable to being acceptable. And I feel like where we are right now even… so we are recording in October, 2022… AI art with Dall-E and MidJourney, and Stable Diffusion to a point, has only just hit the mainstream.

Whereas it’s something I’ve been looking at for ages, but when I was talking to people about this even a year ago, the response was so negative.

A bit like self-publishing went from being on the outside to suddenly being, you know, Brandon Sanderson raising 41 million on Kickstarter. People are like, oh, that’s not really self-publishing. I’m like, well, yeah, it is .

Yeah. You know, so I feel like there, we, we go through these cycles of where technology is unacceptable and why would you use that to Yeah, of course I use it. What? It’s not even a big, a big deal.

Mich Bondesio:

[00:18:52] Yeah. Yeah. It’s true. It’s, it’s about assimilating it into, uh, not seeing it as something foreign because as you say, it is already embedded.

Um, so we’ve spoken about how these tools support your creativity and your productivity to some extent, as well as helping you run your business.

Do you use any of these kinds of tools to help you with your wellbeing?

Joanna Penn:

[00:19:16] Uh, It, it’s an interesting question. I mean, I’m wearing an Apple watch and I do track my exercise, (Mm-hmm), so I guess that could kind of count. Um, but I guess when I, in terms of my wellbeing, I tend to log off and get into the, the real world as such. And in fact, this was a bit of a, a, I said this in the beginning of this year. I do goals at the beginning of the year, and this has been a goal for several years and will continue to be, which is more digital, more physical.

“So I want to do more and more and more digitally. But I also want to do more physically.”

And that means like meeting you in person, for example, that counts as physical. And also me going for a walk. Um, I’ve just recently done this Camino de Santiago pilgrimage. Uh, and I disconnected mostly while I was away, but I will now turn that into a book.

And I’ve done a podcast on Books & Travel, and I’ve got blog posts on it, and I’ve got digital pictures and all of that kind of thing. So I guess I feel like I’m, I am careful with my, my sort of wellbeing away from the screen. (Mm-hmm). And I’m very aware of that. Um, and I feel like they both, they both go together.

Mich Bondesio:

[00:20:34] Yeah. Well, I’m also a big proponent of time offline, which supports you when you are online, you know? (Mm). Um, so I agree with you.

So we’ve spoken a lot about the opportunities and how excited we are. Um, what do you think are the potential dangers of this emerging technology?

What are the things that we need to be wary of, or be careful with, and the things that might hinder our creativity, or our productivity, or our wellbeing?

Joanna Penn:

[00:20:58] Yeah, well there are obviously, there are a lot of problems with AI tools and like any technology, I mean, it’s like the internet, you know, there’s a load of awful things that happen on the internet and there’s loads of amazing things. (Yeah).

“So I feel like the responsible AI is a thing. And ethics and AI.”

So for example, I’ve got a course on The AI assisted author and it’s got a whole lesson on bias, diversity issues, deep fakes, ethical use of ai, and all the things that we have to keep in mind.

For example, GPT-3, if you say, um, you know, generate an article on, uh, what happened in this particular battle in World War II, it will write you an article that seems coherent, but it might be completely wrong. (Right!) Yeah. Part of the, I mean, GPT-3 is incredible for fiction.

This is what’s so funny. People are like, oh, AI will never be able to write fiction. And on the same side, it will generate lots of things which are completely wrong, which, (mm-hmm), which you could say is actually fiction . Um, so it’s really quite funny.

“So you must, must, must fact check anything you generate.”

There’s also a lot of issues around the data it’s all trained on. So a lot of the artists at the moment are saying, well, you know, it’s not fair that it’s learned off or it’s unethical that it’s learned off my material on the internet, or that you can use a prompt with a artist’s name.

And I mean, there’s a lot of things happening that I, this will all get sorted out basically. Yeah. Um, I think so like Microsoft is licensing it. And, um, Adobe’s talking about these things. And, and in fact, you know, just again, dipping into blockchain, it may be that blockchain helps us to do sort of, this is my, my creative work and I can put it on chain and that will tag it with my creator name and then it can get used in a model, for example.

So I think, as we move forward, there are ways in which we will, things will get better for those creators who are interested.

“I feel like those creators who just say, I’m just opting out altogether are probably gonna miss out. But those who sort of embrace it and get involved, and that’s what I’m trying to do is get involved.”

Now in terms of bias, I mean the bias is, it’s pretty biased towards obviously a particular demographic. Yeah. And that might be, uh, you know, in terms of published works, it’s gonna be white, middle class, mostly English speaking, educated to a certain point, mostly men because that’s the work that is mainly uh, out of copyright.

Whereas what I think we should have is a lot more work by diverse writers, most of which is, is in copyright because they’re, they’re still alive or things have changed.

So I think we’ve got a long way to go, but it’s worth keeping in mind these problems of bias and diversity and deep fakes and, and all of this kind of stuff is very important to keep in mind and actively engage with and question.

So if you do use one of these tools, let’s say someone listening uses Jarvis for, uh, generating ad copy. Then make sure it hasn’t said something that’s racist, sexist, offensive, et cetera.

Mich Bondesio:

[00:24:12] Yeah, and I think that’s a good point. I, I’ve heard you speak before about how we need to learn how to work with these tools.

They’re our collaborators, but at the same time we’re also their overseers. You know, we need to accept final responsibility for whatever we’re putting out there, even if we, if they’ve generated it for us.

Joanna Penn:

[00:24:27] Yeah. And cuz they’re not.

“The problem is we’ve gone down that AI route, the artificial intelligence, it’s like the smartest thing ever, but it’s also got no brain.”

It’s, it’s got no direction. It’s like taking the most powerful super car and it’s just sitting outside your house. You have to get in and drive or at least tell the super car where to go. (Mm-hmm).

So there is no magic button, which will just generate a novel out of a machine. And even if there was, like there could be, but you still have to tell it what you want.

And so this is the important thing is this, first of all a creative direction. So if you, I and I, what I love about Dall-E and MidJourney in particular is that it teaches you how to do this.

It teaches you prompt engineering, which is how do you tell the machine what you want? Because it won’t do anything until you tell it what you want.

And then your responsibility is, um, you will iterate, you’ll do multiple things, and then you have to curate. So we know the importance of curation and you have to curate the output. And maybe you put several things together, but you certainly, you know, you edit. Again, I mean, you and I, we’re not gonna just write a first draft and then publish it, right?

We will edit the work, we’ll check it. You know, we might hire other people to check it. The same thing with these powerful tools is you just have to think that responsible usage involves this creative direction, but also the editing and checking.

Mich Bondesio:

[00:25:54] Yes. Very good points you’ve made there.

So a final question around this that I have for you is around the future possibilities.

I mean, we’re talking about future stuff that’s in our present, but where is it going?

I’ve read your short book about Artificial Intelligence, Blockchain and Virtual Worlds, and you look at this through the lens of an author and it makes really interesting reading.

And I’ve also listened to the amazing talk that you gave about the creator economy at the Self-Publishing Show in London earlier this year. And I found the suggestions and the thoughts that you shared absolutely amazing. Really mind blowing.

So can you give us a, I mean, I appreciate we don’t have the time to go into all of them, but …

Could you give us a little condensed version of a few of the key opportunities that you think that we as creators need to be looking out for and leveraging?

Joanna Penn:

[00:26:40]  Oh, that’s, that’s a big thing.

So, yeah, I think the main thing about something like the idea of the creator economy to me, is that it is taking the responsibility for your creative business, whatever that is. And instead of relying on the big companies like Amazon, for example, it really is building your community, people who buy from you.

So my books are available on all the stores on Amazon and Apple and Kobo, whatever. But I also have my Shopify store, creativepennbooks.com.

“To me, the creator economy is making the most of our little corner of the world, whatever that is, and serving the people who come to us. And so that’s that in terms of the creator economy, that’s one.”

But in terms of using these future tools, I mean, all of those enable us to have that leverage as I mentioned, so what I see happening in terms of the future and reflecting on how that’s gonna impact us.

So I, I was at the Wired Live conference in London a couple of weeks ago, (Mm-hmm), and the keynote was from the CTO of Amazon. And he was, and I was very excited about this. I was like, what are they gonna talk about? And what they talked about was quantum computing, which I, I was kind of blown away. I was like, okay, that’s really interesting.

I thought that was too far out. But what they were talking about was using quantum computing as a service to do faster simulations.

And so what, why I’m mentioning it is because you’ve asked where this is going? And where this is going is faster.

“This is going to get faster. This is going to get more powerful. This is going to get more pervasive.”

And when things like quantum computing come on board, uh, that’s gonna just radically change how fast we can do things. How quickly we can simulate options.

And so it’s almost like getting to grips with things now when they’re still at an early stage and not just dismissing them, will mean that we have a better chance to surf this wave of change as things speed up.

So again, for example, when I got into podcasting in 2009 because I saw an opportunity and then. Now, uh, however many years later, I make, you know, more than a full-time living from my podcast because I saw that opportunity. And then over time I’ve just changed little things about it. But by starting early, I was able to kind of make the most of that.

So that’s why right now I’m getting into using AI, using blockchain and crypto and NFTs and a whole load of other things.

I’m really interested in where the metaverse will go and all of these things are going to overlap, uh, in the future. And again…

“I guess it is more about being open to them. And just being ready to take advantage of things as they come up, and to see where they might fit.”

So you and I might do this in a metaverse space in a couple of years time where we’re both wearing headsets and people might show up as their avatars or whatever, and our discussion will be exactly the same. It will just be in a different space. But it may be that I’ve got my, um, my bookshelf behind me, which has my NFTs of my limited edition books, for example, um, that kind of thing.

“So what we’ve gotta think is who we are as creatives doesn’t change. But, if we think about that creator economy, we are gonna take advantage of the tools as they arrive to make more of what we want to do and improve what we want to do.”

Uh, so yeah, I’m, I’m really excited about it.

Mich Bondesio:

[00:30:22] Me too. Definitely.

So thanks for that, Joanna.

As we’re coming to a close now, tell us where people can find you online?

Joanna Penn:

Yeah, sure. So for this future stuff, come to thecreativepenn.com/future and there’s a whole load of links there to various podcast episodes and resources about all of this stuff.

And yeah, so thecreativepenn.com is my main site, and on Twitter, I’m at @thecreativepenn with a double N. Those are the best places.

Mich Bondesio:

That’s great. Thank you so much, Jo. It’s been lovely chatting with you. I’ve really enjoyed this and I really appreciate you making the time to share your helpful insights with us today.

Joanna Penn:

Thanks for having me Mich.

Mich Bondesio:

So that was the final episode for this season. Thanks for listening and for learning with us on this journey.

The podcast will be back in mid to late January when I’ll also be sharing more exciting news about my new book.

If you have any thoughts about this episode, please drop me a line with your questions or comments.You can write to hello@creatingcadence.co.

If you like the show, please share the love by rating it on Apple, Spotify, Google Play, or Amazon Music. And you can support Creating Cadence on Patreon or Buy Me A Coffee, links to those also at creatingcadence.co.

So thanks again for listening. Until next time, keep moving forwards with courage, curiosity, and cadence.

Bye for now.